Published June 6, 2023, 6:20 p.m. by Courtney
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If there’s one thing Gary Lineker is not going to do, it’s ‘just stick to football’. The broadcaster joins James O’Brien for a boundless interview, from his time at the top-flight of football to dealing with the corruption rotting its core, to facing the fire and fury of the right-wing press for simply speaking his mind. | joe.co.uk
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[Music]
how old were you and when when you first
kind of became recognized on the streets
a lesser probably early twenties right
yes so since that was the kind of
slightly late developer footballer who
are you yeah I wasn't you know I didn't
really get into the first-team regular
until I was about 21 22 and then it kind
of spiraled from there but um so you
mean recognizable since far too much so
now presumably I mean you can't go
anywhere in Britain without somebody
having a word or saying something um
usually nice always nice yes bizarrely
despite in other areas people are
generally very very very pleasant and
yeah I guess I get noticed everywhere I
go particularly outside of London
probably more than than London because
people are busy in London the cetera but
um you know if I go outside of yeah it's
a bit can be a bit it's far I don't mind
it's fine I'm used to it it's so normal
because it's been like that for over
thirty years so it's I would probably
notice it more if it was the other way
around
yes but I couldn't you know if I want a
skateboard go broaden was it always
football I mean was that was that
because you mentioned being in your
twenties these days you being marked at
12 or 13 we won the books at Leicester
as a schoolboy yeah I was but about that
age twelve thirteen so I was on the
schoolboys I didn't really think I'd
actually make it did you know you didn't
know no I burning ambitious a massive
amount that I've seen always had that
drive and commitment and speed and stuff
like that but I didn't inside me really
it's unbelievably competitive transmits
difficult and I I wasn't you know I
wasn't picked for the county side I was
tiny well I didn't grow until I was like
16 17 so that was sort of Airy sly await
about nine stone and and the size was
important in football in those days it
still is in this country to lesser
degree but still still there so it was
yeah it was everything I did in the game
kind of surprised me whether it was when
I got in the Reiser
I thought all this will fire me out and
then I got in the first team and I was
sitting around all my favorite players
and I was thinking what am I doing here
yeah genuinely and then but whatever
level I'm Torri it's really weird that
you say that because he Ian Lee was in a
couple of weeks ago because it he's an
old man and he just got out of the
jungle and he talked about he talks
about that in in in a slightly different
way but that sense of always being about
to be found out or something cause if
you're gonna get the tap on the shoulder
so alright son very fun yes your job but
but but a but a raw sporting talent is
very different from the world you're in
now from the kind of world of
broadcasting and yeah and again I mean I
remember the first couple of years after
off any footballer I knew what I wanted
to do and again I had that ambition to
try and do it well but for a couple of
years there were so many I remember I
did football focus from from about 96
and I so many times I was in the car
driving homes thinking I'm never gonna
be at it I'm never gonna crack this but
then over a period of time you get
comfortable with the environment and how
it works and listening to talk back and
their innings but there's no equivalent
of scoring goals or is there did you
ever get a moment where you wanted to
equip terrorists to do give everyone a
hug that's funny enough that's the one
thing I've found it you can't replace
there's nothing that that compares to
the feeling of scoring an important goal
or winning a massive game although it's
never quite as good if you didn't score
there's never been anything quite like
doing TV replaces perhaps a little bit
the adrenaline rush we still have the
kind of team camaraderie even though
it's a smaller team so there's that
chore parents are in the under life
answering a bit of fun and all that kind
of thing but at that moment that's
scoring a big goal in a World Cup game
or something he said there's nothing
nothing and I've had conversations with
like Michael Owen now and cheer about
this and they say the same thing they
you know Mike was tried to get it in
racing it doesn't quite exist but so the
only thing that's came that that's come
anywhere near close was Leicester
winning the league was years ago that
was probably the
joyous experience because three of my
lads support Lester I mean they'll grown
up but they still but to live that with
that through that experience with them
the last kind of couple of months of the
season where they kept playing on Sunday
so I did my Saturday night job got home
the boys always used to come round cook
a bit of lunch watch Lester and they
kept winning 1 nil because I'm one and
it was just it was just and then I
remembered just the four hours George
one of them indeed supports mine you
know I even he joined in the end it was
incredible now that gives other people
of flavor that that sense of disbelief
and magic at the same time is a miracle
yeah proved at the beginning of the next
season
there's about the planets aligning and
stuff like that I mean just stay with
football for a bit that kind of gave the
lie to a lot of the negativity
surrounding the modern game didn't it
the fact that everything was up for sale
and the fact that everything was over
produced and over thought and over
managed it was it was really like
lightning striking but because it was a
league title rather than a cup anyone
can win a cup if the wind is blowing in
the right direction but to do it week
off the week of the week I know that it
hasn't been sustained properly but it
did I never going to know of course
happened the following season was
inevitable in my mind I think so
oh it was like after the Lord may show
that wood didn't quite matter so much
for the players and manage you've tried
something different that didn't work I
blame the manager he leaves somebody
else comes in all of a sudden the
microscopes baton the player so they
performed a bit better but know what
what they did was just astonishing it
was it was just wonderful and yes it did
go against everything perhaps him and
said the things that only the big clubs
could win et cetera in the power but
although it's always really been like
that there's always been two dogs or
three which at least now we've got a few
even though perhaps the top six had
massively separates at least is sick
from yeah well yeah some leagues it's
won some leagues it's - we've got few
you mentioned Shearer and an O in both
of whom like you have have quite I mean
it's in a nice way a sensible demeanor
you mentioned the magic and never quite
being able to recap
that the other players the ones who are
less sensible I suppose most obviously
Gascoigne they do sometimes seem to
spend their lives searching for the hi
again only there's a there's a there's a
tragedy to that well I think it's
difficult for a lot of former
footballers obviously they get a lot of
flawed it's when they play they get a
lot of glory there in the public didn't
mean anything they get lots of money
relevant to a lot of other people and
nowadays more so yes but it's not easy
at the end of your career and some of us
have found something else that we can do
into television but there's only so many
spots but sure the pundits or it's not
many presenters but and there's only so
many coaching jobs
so therefore the vast majority of
footballers that kind of getting a bit
of a wilderness yes well they don't know
what to do and and they all perhaps
invest in some business that might go
wrong and or I think the divorce rates
for footballers from the age of
something like 35 to 40 so the highest
you know seventy percent unbelievable so
then the hot you know then the money
disappears a little bit the self worse
can go down so that's you know people
talk about Paul Gascoigne but you know
and use a magical football II well
that's why but he's got yeah but he's
got kind when higher analyst has always
had their clinical shoes and they're
very addictive personality but even for
lots of other players he wasn't and you
also get accustomed to living in a
certain way and spending a certain
amount of money because most people you
know the more you earning will you spend
generally and then it plummets so it's a
bit where I've been hugely fortunate to
find something else that I could do that
pays really well is and gives me a life
that I enjoy and often think to myself
you know you know wife I've been so
lucky any genuine yes so serendipity
long and that and that notion of being a
lonely even keel as well which is nice
you mentioned the money I have different
is it now I compared to when you were in
your pomp well I was one of the top
played players in the world for what
probably for half a dozen years yes
and that would have meant about the
salary perhaps someone like Alexis
Sanchez we're now getting a week not
that I'm complaining because I do fine
but yes I've been on some just over
three hundred grand a year and I think
that's probably about what I've wanted
to others in world football Confessor in
inflation and real term comparisons but
you're talking about a u-turn to the
previous generation to you and and
whatever generation they're in yes I
can't wait to hear the current crop
winching in fact he's only in pounds
some players do don't know there you can
see a few years also that you players
get attacked yes how much they are yes
but nobody ever seems to say anything
about I mean yes you I can never say I'm
not gonna try even trying to sit here
and justify footballers salary or a
broadcasters salary and but compared
with people that do a real job yes we
could it is what it is but nobody ever
complains about kind of golfers or huge
basketball stars or Formula One drivers
or big actors that get zillions for a
movie top musicians if you're in the top
of the entertainment industry you get
really well paid but it only seems to
not only football is being finalized
football is if they say get walloped for
earning a few quid and but and then
you've got the other side of it the big
business people yes they are unfortunate
of course they're way beyond anything
that possibly a footballer can manage if
they if they're successful enough so you
know it's impossible to sit here and
never try and justify it a big salad no
of course but I wouldn't I wouldn't even
try I've just been just lucky there's no
right business it's not a very long list
of people in any line of work you've
ever turned around I said I think you
might be pay me a bit too much there why
don't you have some of it bad see if you
can find someone else more deserving
than I am um and like that of course
sort of speaks to the to the security
that you have as well and I wonder how I
am a big a part that the security plays
in you making the decision in recent
years to sort of move out of your lane
as the Americans say no and when non
political people get involved in
politics are often taught to stay in
their Lane you've pretty much gone
through the crash barrier in some
context what do you think you don't know
it no yeah but I mean I think for some
people the fear of upsetting the Daily
Mail or the Sun or seeing your employer
in the case of the BBC put under
pressure to get rid of you if you didn't
know that you could pay all of your
bills until they've got children and
stuff but does that play a part at all
or is that is that overthinking what is
quite a few things no I died I think
I've always said reasonable things I
don't I didn't do them on my programs I
know them on my personal social media
whether it's about Twitter bylaws
yes so and I just it started kind of
when I did a little bit about FIFA I was
quite strong on Blatter in particular
which is not quite political issues but
I was that was that when you first
started offering up in my something I
was on what's happened on a pitch quite
probably yeah just about apart from
other sporting things or one or two
interests but now I think I have a kind
self social conscience so I supported I
felt sorry for the refugees and yeah
that seemed to be some kind of crime
that you you it's astonishing when you
might get it because yeah imagine if it
was London yeah and we were under its
hair course and we had to flee and you
have to try and get a boat across the
channel and then members of your family
would die on route and to go to the
extremes to escape some kind of awful
regime that you're it yes I just don't
understand I mean it's a difficult to
deal with and how many come in and who
doesn't and what whether we should house
refugees and said to look after them and
there's always issues about that but I
do not understand how you can not have a
degree of sympathy for their incredibly
awful plight and that was all I really
did at the start and then I that didn't
go down too well was just going back for
about October 2016 roughly years ago
yeah
remark oh do you think that it's that
recent now that you are kind of one of
the people on the on the totem pole for
the right-wing crest that they like to
dance around on a regular basis but it
didn't put you off that astonishing
overreaction I'm not really bully able
which is probably a weakness or a
strength I don't know and that'd be true
so lightly the more they have a go at me
it's more likely for me to be more
involved hmm
but when it started because I never met
you before I'm really interested in this
when it starts because I do it for a
living yeah so you you you were just
being an ordinary bloke offering an
ordinary opinion about extraordinary
circumstances with no inkling at all
that you were painting a target on your
back no I didn't I didn't think I was
painting any kind of time I did one or
two tweets around you know around the
same stage I couldn't really grasp how
hateful some sides were and then they
started perhaps having a go at me and I
was on the front pages about how you can
have these kind of views etc what I
couldn't really comprehend I mean I've
got people that have alternative views
where something that whether it's
refugees whether it's immigrants whether
it's brexit etcetera etc but they'll
have those views and we'll even discuss
them and debate them but we don't start
abusing each other
it's the levels of abuse that came and
probably not helped by our dad
newspapers um cuz kind of fostering this
kind of hatred towards individuals so I
and it went from there but I can't
really understand these yeah you can
have different opinions loads of people
got different opinions and things you
can you think Breck's it's a great thing
alright let's discuss it yeah but it
doesn't mean to say I'm not gonna like
that person no but isn't any less I
might not like his views very much but
it doesn't mean some we're gonna dislike
that person I would have thought
football would prepare you for this
better than almost anything else in the
world probably cuz yeah we'd get dogs
abuse from staining you inle despised in
the blink of an eye if you sign a
contract with an ePub and leave the old
club you go from being on people's
bedroom wall
to being turned into an effigy and burn
on bonfire night yeah so it's good
training because you see for nine it's
big thing about football is for a lot of
people it's the most important thing in
their life yes for a lot of people in
genuine ears you either get that a
hundred percent or you don't get it at
all do you
it's hard to explain it to someone who
goes to the occasional game or someone
who enjoys watching on the telly I
always think of cause on the telly when
the corners when the camera comes in on
a corner and a player who is at the
wrong end the expressions on these
people's faces are feral boy you say
them up yes I've seen them looking at me
like so that gives you thick skin turns
you into a bit of a rhinoceros it can do
or the or if you can't cope with as a
footballer did it can yes have a real
weakening effect on your career
debilitating effects to be able to deal
with that yes so I'm a killer mr. arias
fan so I don't really spend that much
time with people for whom football is
the single most important thing in their
life and in many ways it's just as well
in many ways it's it's healthier because
you're never gonna come out of a grow
worried that someone's gonna smash a
bottle over your head or take a swing at
you and the same obviously goes for the
players would you would you remember
when you were first exposed to the
ugliness of it because well in my time
much uglier yes I remember we had
hooliganism here the racism from the
terraces was was diabolical I mean I
remember been on you know playing on the
pitch and bananas being thrown on in
games when they were back players
playing I remember being on the plane
with England we used to go on a plane
but we have there was punters on the
back I remember a few punches coming
down and having a go at John bond saying
you shouldn't be allowed to wear oh yeah
serious I mean thankfully it's come a
long way since that now I think I think
in many ways I know there is still
issues and there's still racism around
and still race them in football around
but in terms of I think footballs kind
of guiding light in many ways you know
in the football community you see you're
a part of a team you sit in a dressing
room you don't look round you're at your
teammates and thing
he's black he's yellow he's this any
more than you do in your office or your
place all your factors none of that it's
you look around you go Molly's good
player you can cross it he can defer any
worse he's yeah so it's like that I need
to come on and come on and come on and
even on you know you don't get yeah I
don't hear or see those the chance in
this country still anything like it was
in in the mid eighties when it was it
was abhorrent
it was interesting wasn't it to read
about civil regis um yeah I've lost away
recently because he was really pretty
much the first focus of this kind of
thing wasn't he was a trailblazer anyway
and he handled it all with such dignity
and that's I think that's important as
well and people have a go if you can if
you can can't make almost get the moral
high ground in in a way by not losing it
and he was very even-tempered and the
articulate and along with his teammates
at that time at West Brom I love this
right there I love the idea of because
what you're describing really is is
managing to retain your faith in human
nature despite all the evidence you
personally get of how vile it can be I
never would have thought of football as
being a great leveler a great teacher of
how things can improve and how things
can change
no it's it's an it's an interest angle I
suppose but because we've been through
it so much of tools and but I think
we've come a long way in football I mean
we sit in other countries there's you
know raised much more racism from it's
almost like it was here 30 years ago but
it's I think we've we've improved a lot
there's still a way to go and there's
still isolated incidents that's sure
that we'll get within our game but by
and large it's it's improved both on the
pigeon and off the pitch I mean
obviously we've got to get more because
we we've got such a cross-section of
people from different countries etc here
and different colours we've not quite
got that into the management side of the
game you know certainly in a plane and
equally if you were to exchange black
skin for the Muslim faith you've still
got a massive disconnect between the
fans I'm an anorak like this so I
actually the last was it I could get to
Arsenal Chelsea last FA Cup final what
was it
it was yeah so I went on Wikipedia to
work out how many of the players with
Muslims and I put together an eleven and
if you included the subs and a couple of
people over injured there's 11 people on
Associated both of you were both Muslims
and yet still we live in a country where
that that kind of notion of integration
is completely ignored football is
actually in many ways it shows paving
the way what we really are
yes we're all human beings I imagine a
broad and foreign countries famously
were at Barcelona
um it's less common now for English
players to go and play oh yeah I think
there's a reason for that go on de I
think we're English players are
generally reluctant to move we're all
quite happy with live in our little
island here don't we and we're all quite
homely and and it was the same in my day
but in my day it paid so much better
anywhere else it was triple quadruple
you do your salary by playing either in
Spain for one of the big boys or Italy
yes so there were quite a few players in
those days would go there well kings
remember mark Haley Liam Brady Kevin
Keegan went to Germany Tony Woodcock
there were you know if you went to to
Spain so you know it was also no job for
me it was a wonderful experience to go
to a place like Barcelona and who turns
that down but and a chance to learn
another language and things like that
but by and large there were quite a few
players that just went well a few quid
couple years get back home yes
whereas now they don't have to go
anywhere if they want I'd like to see
what the world's calling well everyone
that the salaries here are so high
they're as high as they are well there's
all the exceptions of Ronaldo people
like that the salaries here is very
competitive so therefore when we're
getting an influx of top players not
just staying here but also an influx
coming
so there's an inkling there wasn't there
which would none of us would have
noticed at the time of the the linic of
the social justice warrior who was two
decades further down the tracks because
when you went to Barcelona you you tried
to really embrace Spanish culture there
was none of that kind of living in a get
in in it in a footballer's ghetto you
learnt the language you put down roots
in the country
or tried to yeah there were no football
in ghettos in those days nothing but big
walls houses and stuff like that but um
but yeah I deliberately avoided the
expat society because I just thought
this is a unique opportunity to learn a
language where did that come from go
because I've got I've got this image of
you on your dad's market stall in
Leicester while on the books at lest
there is a schoolboy I don't I don't
know enough about you to to say with any
certainty but presumably if you're on
the books of a club you're not going to
hit the real books at school quite as
hard as you would otherwise right I
didn't probably no you're right though I
didn't you know looking back now if I
was advising the young me yes I'd have
said you know you've got a degree I'm
telling you should go work harder I mean
I've got past the 11 plus I got to
grammar school and all that but then
football and cricket took over and that
was sport was good will you at cricket I
was I thought I'd add more chance at
cricket than football
I'm a prostitute you made the countess's
krickstein and I got my football
opportunity came alive I played the
County Schools a few years ago so yeah I
thought I had a chance at that more than
football but the footballs opportunity
came along first and then cricket took a
back seat so your brain was was big and
active but didn't have a lot to chew on
is that fair like you know I used enjoy
writing to write match reports yes when
I decide this interests formal stuff
it's a journalist screaming together all
alone that's what what I wanted to do if
I didn't make it right I wanted I would
have been a sports journalist yes which
I'm sorry I suspect is the reason most
sports journalists end up being sports
journalist players probably green card
doing
right so there was that engagement with
the world around you the desire to
actually understand things because that
is I guess the difference between the
the instinctive player and the player
who could also write a match report at
the end of the game is you want to
understand you want to unpick it you
want to dismantle it and work out how it
all fits together like very much so
really I used to I mean I don't I wasn't
particularly gifted as a as a as a
footballer I mean I didn't have a
brilliant touch I couldn't dribble past
you now well am I you know the only way
I could ever beat anyone was think I was
very quick yes I was quick in my mind so
I yes and I used to think about the game
and I worked out how to score goals I
and and the other thing that I was I was
given was a very very cool hair dye very
even second card never got nervous never
got angry yeah never tackled anyway so
yeah so I was given those things but I
didn't have you know any kind of
brilliant technique or I had to work
really hard at my torch and stuff like
that and your coach is probably why I
was at more of a late developing right
yes game was more about Thornton yes
like building blocks that you were
putting together knowing that what would
work and what wouldn't from watching
other players and from working out where
you weigh so you would never have
described yourself as an instinctive no
not not similar I was most of my goals
when I was young with balls over the
tops I was really quick just outrunning
people and one on ones the goalkeeper
which was always I quite enjoyed and but
not being three players and curling in
the top corner I never did that my life
this this might sound like a rude
question but it's linked to what we're
talking about with regard to school and
and and the study um did you read a lot
of books when you were young did you
yeah you did okay then it's not a rose
then it's not a rude question to see
this thoughtfulness going on challenged
on unchecked so so that puts you on a
slightly different metaphorical Buster
ball is James this book yes of course
yeah
- I would take the mother of all
kickings for the besties to read a
national newspaper UK you kept your ins
card you it was unfair that portrayal of
footballers is big yeah this is a
cross-section of a society you know some
of them are some of them are daft some
of them have drink problems yes some of
them are very intelligent some of them
will read a lot some of them won't read
at all they'll have all sort there just
a cross-section of working-class lads
that have come up and then quite well
some of them can handle that
some of them cars yeah so we are um did
you I knew your lads to go into the game
or did they were all keen I went I used
to watch them and support them the
middle two were quite good Harry Bertie
never really loved it enough and Tobias
was on one third was on Chelsea's books
was Academy for a couple years but he
had that was good status and the
condition thing even both needs out for
two and half years but I think by his
own admission he probably wouldn't have
been quite good enough anyway buddy yeah
and you've got to be it has to be really
good and I think to be the son of a
tough player you've got be even better
cause good please so what do you get oh
I mean I remember George who buy his own
well him by himself he was not the best
player I remember
and he always when he was very tiny you
say I want to be a football I want to
feel football and and I used to watch
him anything and then it weighs about 11
or 12 1 knives putting him to bed and he
said daddy sit up I don't think I'm
gonna be good enough to be a footballer
I just didn't know well you know it's
gonna be difficult but I used to stand
on the touchline
don't get started on this or on with
parents and watching for the kids play
football they live in their lives
through the children they are they're so
desperate for them to make it to it's
it's it's having the opposite effect
completely opposite in fact they put
instill fear into the grades this gets
better do it's ridiculous I just get
better parents conce amazed at all I
thought I thought he might be might be
better yeah better than he is and I said
well we see you know why well you know
you with yes well his mother was wrong
I've done watch for my nine-year-old it
sports a couple of years ago she was
nine another dad was showing they just
wish we could bring in this thing where
parents were said nothing yes nothing
apart from applause yeah it's not gonna
make much difference or well make a lot
of difference no I mean yes exactly
you're not gonna have a negative impact
I've been quiet spent yeah therefore
boys listen what's the standing on
search somewhere I never ever shouted
anything ever listening to big people
give the worst possible advice to their
own children and other children in the
team shouting complete nonsense 99.9% at
the time yes um does it clearly you
genuinely do rise above all of the flack
that's directed out you for sticking
your head above the parapet what about
when your personal life gets into the
papers that must be harder to pay yeah
it's difficult there are special I mean
though when they write on truths
yes I'm powerless often I've only
recently discovered things written but
I'll tell you what sir you'll get used
to this what's wrong good things about
he exactly eventually one of the good
things about social media though it
gives you a right of reply yes would you
never used to have that I mean I've seen
stories about myself and other people
that I know that completely wrong yes
completely made-up nonsense I mean it
takes six months to any shiny vehicle
you had available to you is trying to so
and now it took such a long or arduous
process that was dragged out
deliberately to put you off ever doing
it and it was dangerously expenses if he
didn't win dangerously expensive whereas
at least on Twitter now you see
something that's wrong hmm that's
actually a false story about you you can
go straight away to especially if you've
got big following which perhaps more
than will read the paper in two versions
it becomes very trees
wrong yes yeah and people will then help
you side with you and it gets out there
and it reaches so many more people than
than ten years ago no right of reply at
all ten years ago was going you had no
chat standing on a street corner with a
loudhailer be your only real cm
McFarlane yesterday picture of the front
page exactly that completely fabricated
nonsense when follows in the star has
read yes it right in the power there's a
changing the parent and that's what they
don't like and that's why they tend to
try and perhaps have a go on your
thoughts or a little concern yes if
especially if if we don't agree with
them yes now I'm fascinated by this I
got my first because obviously I'd you
know if you were here I'm somewhere down
there I got turned over properly by did
you see and its might was Twitter it
wasn't even the radio show it's hurtful
isn't it I mean I don't care who you are
no it's hopefully in a way yeah I mean
there's also that bit like you that goes
all right then do something right but of
course you'd rather everybody liked you
you don't want to be the person that and
I trying to unravel that this what you
just said there about they don't like
anybody having a view that challenges
the thing they're selling no it's I mean
it's fine I'll have their views do what
they want of course but don't go
personal personal attacks just because
you don't like what someone thinks I
don't that's why I can't comprehend ya
know that so he has a different view to
you so that's what the world's about
will have different views on all sorts
of different things yes but it doesn't
mean say you've got to be revengeful and
try and attack them personally it's
that's the modus operandi become worse
than it's ever been I think with Bexar
and trump it's almost well I think we're
in a I think we're in a moment it's
almost the watershed moment the thing to
either be watershed moment for good and
continue going down this slippery slope
I love how that would end yeah it's
quite chilling um you and Lily Allen
probably the who's done unfiltered
already it's like crossing the streams
for the edits for the mail that have to
have you to uh if there ever did you
find it I mean you're all of a sudden
you yeah I've gone from those might have
former newspaper journalist
I wasn't very good at it but um I mean
I'm buying very pro newspapers any sure
I just we don't understand this new
breed this new strain I was freaked out
by it actually a lot of great things
yeah I think sometimes the other side of
it lets the real journalists down of
course it blends but they're not brave
enough to stand up against it because
they'd either I'd use the word brave
because because oh well you have to be
really brave to stand up to your own and
you'd have to not be able to pay your
bills next month you have to be really
brave I see what you mean Oh Matt or
what here but so I get how difficult it
can be from I mean I'll get direct
messages from from Jeff yeah I'm sure
freelance would never name them because
it won't be good to say when we're
absolutely on your side I'm really sorry
it's difficult you know standing a
embankment station minding my own
business but it comes off a stands next
to me goes alright James it's like
something out of Smiley's bit happens to
be occasionally not like it does the I
just want to say I'm great what you're
doing with regard to the mayor at the
moment why are you whispering it I'm a
senior but they're decent normal people
and yet there's this doing a job that I
mean I'm sure they disappointing on
occasion of course actually that's
that's the thing I'm getting from you
which is quite reassuring to me the
baffle knows where does it leave what's
the point is a unless there is just one
size fits all one flavor of ice cream
foot foot for the whole country have you
ever had because if we take October 2016
as the kickoff point with the post FIFA
comments when you start tweeting about
refugees in what you've described very
clearly as an utterly unremarkable
response to a human tragedy have you
ever thought I might why my neck in for
a bit now or I might just take that
fourth I'm not gonna hang up my I don't
overdo it
no as well I know I think it's trying to
find I think if I'm really really upset
about something or I feel it's worthy of
comment and I'll then I'll do it and
I've never deliberately thought actually
maybe I shouldn't no mention anything
political environment I mean I don't
really put out there my political no you
don't area
humanitarian views rather than political
I mean obviously there are things that
you see that the government might do
feel strongly about but you know I've
never sided with one party in particular
or the other I've never said who I vote
for but it's it's for me humanitarian
issues are important and obviously I
don't agree with brexit I get that a lot
of people do fine I just can't yet see
anything that will be good about it
[Laughter]
again like you I'm waiting for the
overdose someone comes along as a zero
maybe hope okay I fear that it's the
children you worry all right but we're
kind of leaving this locker
good yeah genuinely good yeah not poor
no no nothing's perfect when it's you
know the political world it's definitely
very little especial times but you know
it's kind of worked in its own way for a
long time we've had peace for a long
time
whereas who knows I to that we used to
have wars with a couple of okay just
chunk out the Germans have a crack at
the French vice versa Spanish it's
interesting you say that because I don't
think apology political is the right
word to describe I prefer humanitarian
and I like wouldn't put money on how you
do vote because presumably you can
compare what do they say is sort of I
presumably don't want a top tax rate of
95 percent like we had there are the
things I agree with on both sides okay
yes and there are things I disagree with
on both sides rageous you need to be
more like a football fan yeah though you
these yes that's almost like it is it to
say something negative say about the
Tory Party on occasion yeah as you love
Jeremy called me it means you love
Jeremy Corbyn and if you say if you
criticize Jeremy Corbyn you love my
that's nice pushing it but my dad did
yes
so it's you know you soon as you put
your head a little bit
it's a family business you're in the
Thatcher's I know that's right you're
bad probably so you say you should have
been Prime Minister be prouder of um
it's interesting actually because you
were in Liverpool in the mid eighties
Everton for one season I know but that
dressing room must have been one of the
most political football dressing rooms
Hatton was always hanging around me yes
still is Neville Southall is giving you
a run for your money on social media as
a moment he's actually dev was pretty
close to across to me mother Teresa and
yeah it was it was a big political
environment Everts in that season that
dressing room or is this my theory go
slowly shot down in flames by some of
there was actually there that's good
that's fine no change I've changed a lot
different things you do you think about
different things as you get older and
you perhaps worrying a little bit more
about things you should get older as
well and you you think more deeply about
certain areas that we've done and we've
all done that and but it was a good
dressing room yeah team I played for
sure how do you mean it was the best
team well in terms of how everything
slotted together
yeah idea I was in idea word up them a
bit longer but yeah Barcelona came
knocking the club except the bed so I'm
sorry and you have no say in there at
all no I didn't have to go right but
when a club comes to so I've accepted a
bear do you think oh well I'm not really
that wanted and he was like that in
those days he's different now he said
the player has much more power yes but
it wasn't you know it wasn't via route
via reals no it was it was Barcelona so
it wasn't terrible was that with end I
think you may have answered this
question of all the club's he played for
the first time you ran out onto the
pitch in a home game but was Barcelona
the one that made you feel my boss those
huge so he after know many magical Kurds
it was 120,000 about that and Ernie do
you just come out of the tunnel which
the the level of the pitch is actually
it's a lot lower than the outside at the
ground so when you come up yeah
different here below the pit below this
actual ground leveled off and then you
you go out the tunnel on themselves I
mean to the pitch and it was oh my god
it just goes really close to the
pitchers just great or are you entirely
kind of DIY because like a magpie you
just look around you know I agree with
this thing that thing then things I
don't like and yes I've done you know
I've never been kind of help me not
found it quite difficult to vote for
never the last couple of lectures gonna
be even harder I know it's a lot of
homeless political but yeah politically
I felt like that for some time would it
then would it have been brave of you to
refuse to do the FIFA draw the other way
the other Bay because you've been so
outspoken critic of yeah yeah yeah
that's change I'm happy to explain why I
did it I contact a lot of debate new
people with and it would an over a
period of time they convinced me that
they really really do want to change it
now hopefully they don't let me down
there's more in football as involved I
was being too van Basten who's involved
now Figo they're an in particular boban
right who's
tightly Secretary Shirl or something but
he's very high up on the ladder and
boban in particularly is hugely
impressive he loves football and he's
desperate to change things for the good
now do you just stay outside when
somebody to approach you like that or do
you try and get inside and influence
them and change things for the good
because I care about football and that's
why I did that's that's exactly why I
did it I have meetings out there I spent
hours with with the president I spent
hours with boban and um I remember
sitting them in restaurants and this is
your opportunity that you can have a
real legacy for good in football you can
make change it's really not easy really
not easy for them because they come in
and they you know they can be hoofed out
instead of all yeah but you know I I
plead my case with them and for me to
have that opportunity to do I think was
was important I didn't do it for money
I've given the whole gave the whole fee
to the British Red Cross
it wasn't interested it wasn't a money
thankful and also it was so you were
saying your support to the new regime in
a way saying I was trying to influence
the new race yes I'm not I'm not
supporting them yet until they prove to
me okay and and football that they
genuinely will do what they say they
will do now and I have a lot of trust
particularly boban and the football
people that are involved and hopefully
they'll make a difference but you know
they deserve a little bit of a push a
little bit of support along the way cuz
the person I battered and battered and
battered was bratter
yes and Ernie's cronies and that old God
and pretty much all of them now are
either suspended in jail pending arrest
etcetera etcetera they've all that
nearly all gone by the handful and yes
there is still issues that need
resolving but some of them need time and
so what would have been achieved by you
not doing it is pertinent as well isn't
it because it wouldn't matter if I could
could have made it slow and you said
well I was asked but it was how did he
get so rotten I mean sort of someone a
lot closer to it for most of your life
how did he get so rotten so it made me
feel sick a lot there are the levels of
corruption and even some of the things
that they they told me which I can't say
how bad the previous regime yes
they're trying to do to change it and
how the the expenditure massively going
down and I you know it's not being naive
and don't know I don't know but you know
that's all thing you can piss outside
the tent yeah it's true
um and and the reaction then which I
what hadn't been aware to like that I
just did a little bit of swatting up
before us who are you the this of course
is the same Linacre who has been one of
FIFA's most visceral it's the same these
three years ago said FIFA's nauseating
corruption made him feel sick advisor I
still say yes no and I genuinely mend
that and but we have got a new garden
and and hopefully they will be
considerably better and infantino proved
that but I'm you know I'm not I think it
would be difficult for them but I think
they've already made massive changes
with it and the scrutiny has not the
scrutinized they want to make the the
elections for the next World Cup bids
totally open so that everyone can see
who's bidding for everyone so that's a
star I automatically it takes away the
obvious you know bribery things a little
bit yes and it does read like something
Mario Puzo might have written doesn't it
some of the star means he'll know more
than the rest of us do but it is it's
almost as if dream up any example of
corruption and then double it and it
happened it's beyond belief yes it was
truly awful but you know they needed an
new broom yeah it needed to you know
just get rid of the old guard and bring
someone else in and let's hope these new
people that won you know part of this
before let's hope they're much better I
sense they are especially with boban
Bert's we watch this space watch this
space and and if they don't let ball
game down I'll be back on their case no
kidding yeah well that's a lovely thing
isn't it that's a lovely thing about
what you have become
sort of almost by accident is that now
you do actually have credibility in the
in the sense of these will know that
you'll be telling the truth next time
you if you do decide that you need not
have a bit of weight in the game that
has been so good to me over
did you ever fancy going down that route
English players do it very often I don't
think many players do it no not many I
mean a flirtini most obvious city
exactly covering something yeah yeah of
course I mean I knew Michelle used a
wonderful football
it was quite you know effervescent guy
you could see I'd done well B he let
himself down you let the game down no
football is down no glory in the
backroom job neither is that I don't
mean glory in a negative sense I mean it
in that magical whirling of yes I
suppose this power yes because I've
known as we've never had any kind of
feeling having wanted to have any kind
of power so I never you know I also
don't like playing that let's be nice to
everyone political thing that everyone
has to do exam yeah you are mr. nice who
is the last person you were horrible to
serious question Oh will mean try not to
be mean yeah but you must be sometimes
you know put a few way my own style on
Twitter yes this is sure and I've had a
popper a few so I've been a mean to
people died perhaps this is a really
really really deserved how do you do you
ration it yourself because you could
it's easy to get into a vortex isn't it
especially when you could see so much
poison yeah as you are you just get a
bit of poison on there but yeah most of
the time I ignore it rise above it I
don't look too much of the notification
no occasionally I'll see one or two
things um so so occasionally I love a
little little bite it is a cesspit and
it is um in place haters out spite
briefly before we started recording so I
got a comment whether we said this on or
off okay but there was that sense that
social media has become like a football
crowd that sense that it is now yeah it
was before it was so good was to again
it was it's open season the way that you
can attack a public figure in particular
or even a non public figure it would
only at one point I've been football is
there ever and probably black
footballers they ever got exposed to
that kind of well we all got the hatred
as football I certainly I mean you still
see it now on the terrace hatred at the
faces and stuff you never really
received that person
until perhaps social media came along
and then all of a sudden the people with
the the venneman anger inside them they
vent and they and they can do it
directly to you here so it's incredible
so it's kind of weird especially since
I've come out term in terms of you know
showing a social conscience
humanitarianism we call it whatever you
like I've had probably more love than
I've ever heard but I've also had way
more hate that have even noticed before
hooks and again I never ever get that in
the street I they never have the kind of
I don't know whether the bravery or the
to come up to and give you so you I
don't like your views or whatever never
get that no it's getting chair inside
bullets a bit you'd like to think they
would be too ashamed and embarrassed
rather than it necessarily being and I
think actually most of them if you
actually been and they did say what they
said energy you talk them out of it you
go actually often come on I did this
thing come on off yeah I mean you do you
don't I've done it with people who've
texted in yeah not not intending to
speak to me I've given a ring in the
commercial power do you really mean
there you want my wife to get cancer she
talk this through me you don't know yeah
I'm not encouraged to do it but but um
but but the numbers there so and and
you're right they do often when you just
hold up the mirror they see what they
look like and they just call Christ
sorry I didn't mean I was just a bit of
fun and they don't really think I mean I
don't think most people most people are
good they have to be most people are
going after but what you get them the
ones that want to engage on Twitter
though they're the ones the few that are
angry yes yeah where is most people go
that's funny or that's quite me I agree
with him or I don't agree with him I
don't know I think 99% of people like
that but you notice it because it's the
1% of course it's the soundest you know
the loudest it's their chance to and
they're that and you also noticed the
one that's really nasty you don't notice
the really nice things that's just human
nature again like you said before we all
want everyone to like a little bit of a
sociopath in which case I know at the
Daily Mail
that carrot so everybody's thanks here
do you worry about your children growing
up in this kind of environment albums in
my life worrying about children
different ages different concerns as
they you know as the roles progress and
then when they get to adulthood and you
you know afford a house what job they're
gonna do all that kind of thing and why
is their future in them and I mean the
world's a little bit in flux
yeah it's good I thought you would have
thought if football didn't work and
whatever job you ended up doing that you
like your dad would have done it right
up until retirement yeah it would have
been roaming you but you would have
progressed within a structure and you'd
had done well but you wouldn't have run
the risk of hitting 40 and and having to
start all over again it's it's a very
different economic world it's it really
is in all sorts and you know and the
safety of the world at the moment so you
know so many places around the world
that are in turmoil we're numb when
George was poorly when it went George
had leukemia from which he made a full
and frank recovery did you come out of
that experience changed do you think or
almost no I think I always had a sense
of perspective and realized you know I
suppose I've always had a you know
charmed life in this so it was so you
started to wonder but it has to have
effect on you something like that I mean
it was it was an unbelievably traumatic
few months I mean two or three times
they told he eat very unlikely make it
through the night really and living that
was they brutal so it has to have some
kind of effect on you for sure what that
was I mean people say oh did it give you
a big more perspective well I always had
some degree of perspective but it's
gonna enhance that internality why is
important in life is it important that
you score two goals at the weekend well
of course it is but it's not as
important as me as son lives or dies I
mean you'd be I mean how anyone couldn't
understand that
oh but yeah I suppose it did in many
ways but yeah there's a little miracle
in many ways George very close on you -
yeah it's lovely they're great they're
good fun now
enjoy your company yeah well they were
embarrassed to be Gary Lineker sons I
think parents always embarrass that
you're not a normal parent mate so young
boys footy this where I sat down
breakfast told the story a few times
Drago's was that when George was about
ten eleven he's in Manchester United
found he used to love daily betting when
I was reading the paper and there's a
big picture of Beckham on it and he just
he just said God wouldn't it be great to
have David Beckham he's really good they
were they were a conscious of you as a
player though weren't they they were did
mean he was still playing when not quite
just I was that's quite a stare to ask
rule I don't mean the line is cruel the
line is brilliant but it would be nice
for them to be able to sort of just have
a sniff of your heyday from the inside
rather the restaurant actually with I
was having dinner with George and David
Beckham came in with Victoria like two
weeks ago
first I'd Swain so much fun does told
David the story I love it love it this
is a genuine question actually and it
could go almost anywhere do you have any
ambitions and I'm gonna rent the word
left Gary do you have any ambitions left
I want to be Prime Minister ambitions
left move could you see a complete lane
change again could you see yourself
doing something completely I've found a
couple of lane changes I know more than
most yeah although always with the
footballing flavor yeah exactly
I mean the one thing I've done in recent
in the last couple two three years is
starting my own production company with
my friend Tony yeah we've got a lifetime
in TV I mean he runs it my so and I'm
quite involved and do as much as I can
and stuff so that's quite that's been
quite fun be nice to build that up and
hopefully you know be able to employ a
few people etc and you have kind of how
long do you think I mean I think a lot
of it can throw a couple
I told her she was never gonna die I
don't know cancer are overdone honestly
so there he thought about it for ages he
thought about it for so long I was gonna
give him an odd job serious thought and
just Kimmy couldn't conceive of passing
away but I didn't mean that
I meant no I mean how long does Jo know
much that they kept going Jimmy I love
what I do
clearly never bought no I love football
I love watching the big games I love
broadcasting football so um you know
until I've I've certainly got no designs
on retirement the moment I get bored and
know no intention of stepping back not
yet not yet I'm sorry everyone
it's stuck with me for a bit I'm glad to
hear it Gary that was real a real
pleasure thank you guys good to me
likewise finally
[Music]
you
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