March 29, 2024

Gary Lineker interview on football, refugees & politics | Unfiltered with James O’Brien #16



Published June 6, 2023, 6:20 p.m. by Courtney


Get a new episode of #Unfiltered every week - Subscribe for free: https://playpodca.st/unfiltered

If there’s one thing Gary Lineker is not going to do, it’s ‘just stick to football’. The broadcaster joins James O’Brien for a boundless interview, from his time at the top-flight of football to dealing with the corruption rotting its core, to facing the fire and fury of the right-wing press for simply speaking his mind. | joe.co.uk

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[Music]

how old were you and when when you first

kind of became recognized on the streets

a lesser probably early twenties right

yes so since that was the kind of

slightly late developer footballer who

are you yeah I wasn't you know I didn't

really get into the first-team regular

until I was about 21 22 and then it kind

of spiraled from there but um so you

mean recognizable since far too much so

now presumably I mean you can't go

anywhere in Britain without somebody

having a word or saying something um

usually nice always nice yes bizarrely

despite in other areas people are

generally very very very pleasant and

yeah I guess I get noticed everywhere I

go particularly outside of London

probably more than than London because

people are busy in London the cetera but

um you know if I go outside of yeah it's

a bit can be a bit it's far I don't mind

it's fine I'm used to it it's so normal

because it's been like that for over

thirty years so it's I would probably

notice it more if it was the other way

around

yes but I couldn't you know if I want a

skateboard go broaden was it always

football I mean was that was that

because you mentioned being in your

twenties these days you being marked at

12 or 13 we won the books at Leicester

as a schoolboy yeah I was but about that

age twelve thirteen so I was on the

schoolboys I didn't really think I'd

actually make it did you know you didn't

know no I burning ambitious a massive

amount that I've seen always had that

drive and commitment and speed and stuff

like that but I didn't inside me really

it's unbelievably competitive transmits

difficult and I I wasn't you know I

wasn't picked for the county side I was

tiny well I didn't grow until I was like

16 17 so that was sort of Airy sly await

about nine stone and and the size was

important in football in those days it

still is in this country to lesser

degree but still still there so it was

yeah it was everything I did in the game

kind of surprised me whether it was when

I got in the Reiser

I thought all this will fire me out and

then I got in the first team and I was

sitting around all my favorite players

and I was thinking what am I doing here

yeah genuinely and then but whatever

level I'm Torri it's really weird that

you say that because he Ian Lee was in a

couple of weeks ago because it he's an

old man and he just got out of the

jungle and he talked about he talks

about that in in in a slightly different

way but that sense of always being about

to be found out or something cause if

you're gonna get the tap on the shoulder

so alright son very fun yes your job but

but but a but a raw sporting talent is

very different from the world you're in

now from the kind of world of

broadcasting and yeah and again I mean I

remember the first couple of years after

off any footballer I knew what I wanted

to do and again I had that ambition to

try and do it well but for a couple of

years there were so many I remember I

did football focus from from about 96

and I so many times I was in the car

driving homes thinking I'm never gonna

be at it I'm never gonna crack this but

then over a period of time you get

comfortable with the environment and how

it works and listening to talk back and

their innings but there's no equivalent

of scoring goals or is there did you

ever get a moment where you wanted to

equip terrorists to do give everyone a

hug that's funny enough that's the one

thing I've found it you can't replace

there's nothing that that compares to

the feeling of scoring an important goal

or winning a massive game although it's

never quite as good if you didn't score

there's never been anything quite like

doing TV replaces perhaps a little bit

the adrenaline rush we still have the

kind of team camaraderie even though

it's a smaller team so there's that

chore parents are in the under life

answering a bit of fun and all that kind

of thing but at that moment that's

scoring a big goal in a World Cup game

or something he said there's nothing

nothing and I've had conversations with

like Michael Owen now and cheer about

this and they say the same thing they

you know Mike was tried to get it in

racing it doesn't quite exist but so the

only thing that's came that that's come

anywhere near close was Leicester

winning the league was years ago that

was probably the

joyous experience because three of my

lads support Lester I mean they'll grown

up but they still but to live that with

that through that experience with them

the last kind of couple of months of the

season where they kept playing on Sunday

so I did my Saturday night job got home

the boys always used to come round cook

a bit of lunch watch Lester and they

kept winning 1 nil because I'm one and

it was just it was just and then I

remembered just the four hours George

one of them indeed supports mine you

know I even he joined in the end it was

incredible now that gives other people

of flavor that that sense of disbelief

and magic at the same time is a miracle

yeah proved at the beginning of the next

season

there's about the planets aligning and

stuff like that I mean just stay with

football for a bit that kind of gave the

lie to a lot of the negativity

surrounding the modern game didn't it

the fact that everything was up for sale

and the fact that everything was over

produced and over thought and over

managed it was it was really like

lightning striking but because it was a

league title rather than a cup anyone

can win a cup if the wind is blowing in

the right direction but to do it week

off the week of the week I know that it

hasn't been sustained properly but it

did I never going to know of course

happened the following season was

inevitable in my mind I think so

oh it was like after the Lord may show

that wood didn't quite matter so much

for the players and manage you've tried

something different that didn't work I

blame the manager he leaves somebody

else comes in all of a sudden the

microscopes baton the player so they

performed a bit better but know what

what they did was just astonishing it

was it was just wonderful and yes it did

go against everything perhaps him and

said the things that only the big clubs

could win et cetera in the power but

although it's always really been like

that there's always been two dogs or

three which at least now we've got a few

even though perhaps the top six had

massively separates at least is sick

from yeah well yeah some leagues it's

won some leagues it's - we've got few

you mentioned Shearer and an O in both

of whom like you have have quite I mean

it's in a nice way a sensible demeanor

you mentioned the magic and never quite

being able to recap

that the other players the ones who are

less sensible I suppose most obviously

Gascoigne they do sometimes seem to

spend their lives searching for the hi

again only there's a there's a there's a

tragedy to that well I think it's

difficult for a lot of former

footballers obviously they get a lot of

flawed it's when they play they get a

lot of glory there in the public didn't

mean anything they get lots of money

relevant to a lot of other people and

nowadays more so yes but it's not easy

at the end of your career and some of us

have found something else that we can do

into television but there's only so many

spots but sure the pundits or it's not

many presenters but and there's only so

many coaching jobs

so therefore the vast majority of

footballers that kind of getting a bit

of a wilderness yes well they don't know

what to do and and they all perhaps

invest in some business that might go

wrong and or I think the divorce rates

for footballers from the age of

something like 35 to 40 so the highest

you know seventy percent unbelievable so

then the hot you know then the money

disappears a little bit the self worse

can go down so that's you know people

talk about Paul Gascoigne but you know

and use a magical football II well

that's why but he's got yeah but he's

got kind when higher analyst has always

had their clinical shoes and they're

very addictive personality but even for

lots of other players he wasn't and you

also get accustomed to living in a

certain way and spending a certain

amount of money because most people you

know the more you earning will you spend

generally and then it plummets so it's a

bit where I've been hugely fortunate to

find something else that I could do that

pays really well is and gives me a life

that I enjoy and often think to myself

you know you know wife I've been so

lucky any genuine yes so serendipity

long and that and that notion of being a

lonely even keel as well which is nice

you mentioned the money I have different

is it now I compared to when you were in

your pomp well I was one of the top

played players in the world for what

probably for half a dozen years yes

and that would have meant about the

salary perhaps someone like Alexis

Sanchez we're now getting a week not

that I'm complaining because I do fine

but yes I've been on some just over

three hundred grand a year and I think

that's probably about what I've wanted

to others in world football Confessor in

inflation and real term comparisons but

you're talking about a u-turn to the

previous generation to you and and

whatever generation they're in yes I

can't wait to hear the current crop

winching in fact he's only in pounds

some players do don't know there you can

see a few years also that you players

get attacked yes how much they are yes

but nobody ever seems to say anything

about I mean yes you I can never say I'm

not gonna try even trying to sit here

and justify footballers salary or a

broadcasters salary and but compared

with people that do a real job yes we

could it is what it is but nobody ever

complains about kind of golfers or huge

basketball stars or Formula One drivers

or big actors that get zillions for a

movie top musicians if you're in the top

of the entertainment industry you get

really well paid but it only seems to

not only football is being finalized

football is if they say get walloped for

earning a few quid and but and then

you've got the other side of it the big

business people yes they are unfortunate

of course they're way beyond anything

that possibly a footballer can manage if

they if they're successful enough so you

know it's impossible to sit here and

never try and justify it a big salad no

of course but I wouldn't I wouldn't even

try I've just been just lucky there's no

right business it's not a very long list

of people in any line of work you've

ever turned around I said I think you

might be pay me a bit too much there why

don't you have some of it bad see if you

can find someone else more deserving

than I am um and like that of course

sort of speaks to the to the security

that you have as well and I wonder how I

am a big a part that the security plays

in you making the decision in recent

years to sort of move out of your lane

as the Americans say no and when non

political people get involved in

politics are often taught to stay in

their Lane you've pretty much gone

through the crash barrier in some

context what do you think you don't know

it no yeah but I mean I think for some

people the fear of upsetting the Daily

Mail or the Sun or seeing your employer

in the case of the BBC put under

pressure to get rid of you if you didn't

know that you could pay all of your

bills until they've got children and

stuff but does that play a part at all

or is that is that overthinking what is

quite a few things no I died I think

I've always said reasonable things I

don't I didn't do them on my programs I

know them on my personal social media

whether it's about Twitter bylaws

yes so and I just it started kind of

when I did a little bit about FIFA I was

quite strong on Blatter in particular

which is not quite political issues but

I was that was that when you first

started offering up in my something I

was on what's happened on a pitch quite

probably yeah just about apart from

other sporting things or one or two

interests but now I think I have a kind

self social conscience so I supported I

felt sorry for the refugees and yeah

that seemed to be some kind of crime

that you you it's astonishing when you

might get it because yeah imagine if it

was London yeah and we were under its

hair course and we had to flee and you

have to try and get a boat across the

channel and then members of your family

would die on route and to go to the

extremes to escape some kind of awful

regime that you're it yes I just don't

understand I mean it's a difficult to

deal with and how many come in and who

doesn't and what whether we should house

refugees and said to look after them and

there's always issues about that but I

do not understand how you can not have a

degree of sympathy for their incredibly

awful plight and that was all I really

did at the start and then I that didn't

go down too well was just going back for

about October 2016 roughly years ago

yeah

remark oh do you think that it's that

recent now that you are kind of one of

the people on the on the totem pole for

the right-wing crest that they like to

dance around on a regular basis but it

didn't put you off that astonishing

overreaction I'm not really bully able

which is probably a weakness or a

strength I don't know and that'd be true

so lightly the more they have a go at me

it's more likely for me to be more

involved hmm

but when it started because I never met

you before I'm really interested in this

when it starts because I do it for a

living yeah so you you you were just

being an ordinary bloke offering an

ordinary opinion about extraordinary

circumstances with no inkling at all

that you were painting a target on your

back no I didn't I didn't think I was

painting any kind of time I did one or

two tweets around you know around the

same stage I couldn't really grasp how

hateful some sides were and then they

started perhaps having a go at me and I

was on the front pages about how you can

have these kind of views etc what I

couldn't really comprehend I mean I've

got people that have alternative views

where something that whether it's

refugees whether it's immigrants whether

it's brexit etcetera etc but they'll

have those views and we'll even discuss

them and debate them but we don't start

abusing each other

it's the levels of abuse that came and

probably not helped by our dad

newspapers um cuz kind of fostering this

kind of hatred towards individuals so I

and it went from there but I can't

really understand these yeah you can

have different opinions loads of people

got different opinions and things you

can you think Breck's it's a great thing

alright let's discuss it yeah but it

doesn't mean to say I'm not gonna like

that person no but isn't any less I

might not like his views very much but

it doesn't mean some we're gonna dislike

that person I would have thought

football would prepare you for this

better than almost anything else in the

world probably cuz yeah we'd get dogs

abuse from staining you inle despised in

the blink of an eye if you sign a

contract with an ePub and leave the old

club you go from being on people's

bedroom wall

to being turned into an effigy and burn

on bonfire night yeah so it's good

training because you see for nine it's

big thing about football is for a lot of

people it's the most important thing in

their life yes for a lot of people in

genuine ears you either get that a

hundred percent or you don't get it at

all do you

it's hard to explain it to someone who

goes to the occasional game or someone

who enjoys watching on the telly I

always think of cause on the telly when

the corners when the camera comes in on

a corner and a player who is at the

wrong end the expressions on these

people's faces are feral boy you say

them up yes I've seen them looking at me

like so that gives you thick skin turns

you into a bit of a rhinoceros it can do

or the or if you can't cope with as a

footballer did it can yes have a real

weakening effect on your career

debilitating effects to be able to deal

with that yes so I'm a killer mr. arias

fan so I don't really spend that much

time with people for whom football is

the single most important thing in their

life and in many ways it's just as well

in many ways it's it's healthier because

you're never gonna come out of a grow

worried that someone's gonna smash a

bottle over your head or take a swing at

you and the same obviously goes for the

players would you would you remember

when you were first exposed to the

ugliness of it because well in my time

much uglier yes I remember we had

hooliganism here the racism from the

terraces was was diabolical I mean I

remember been on you know playing on the

pitch and bananas being thrown on in

games when they were back players

playing I remember being on the plane

with England we used to go on a plane

but we have there was punters on the

back I remember a few punches coming

down and having a go at John bond saying

you shouldn't be allowed to wear oh yeah

serious I mean thankfully it's come a

long way since that now I think I think

in many ways I know there is still

issues and there's still racism around

and still race them in football around

but in terms of I think footballs kind

of guiding light in many ways you know

in the football community you see you're

a part of a team you sit in a dressing

room you don't look round you're at your

teammates and thing

he's black he's yellow he's this any

more than you do in your office or your

place all your factors none of that it's

you look around you go Molly's good

player you can cross it he can defer any

worse he's yeah so it's like that I need

to come on and come on and come on and

even on you know you don't get yeah I

don't hear or see those the chance in

this country still anything like it was

in in the mid eighties when it was it

was abhorrent

it was interesting wasn't it to read

about civil regis um yeah I've lost away

recently because he was really pretty

much the first focus of this kind of

thing wasn't he was a trailblazer anyway

and he handled it all with such dignity

and that's I think that's important as

well and people have a go if you can if

you can can't make almost get the moral

high ground in in a way by not losing it

and he was very even-tempered and the

articulate and along with his teammates

at that time at West Brom I love this

right there I love the idea of because

what you're describing really is is

managing to retain your faith in human

nature despite all the evidence you

personally get of how vile it can be I

never would have thought of football as

being a great leveler a great teacher of

how things can improve and how things

can change

no it's it's an it's an interest angle I

suppose but because we've been through

it so much of tools and but I think

we've come a long way in football I mean

we sit in other countries there's you

know raised much more racism from it's

almost like it was here 30 years ago but

it's I think we've we've improved a lot

there's still a way to go and there's

still isolated incidents that's sure

that we'll get within our game but by

and large it's it's improved both on the

pigeon and off the pitch I mean

obviously we've got to get more because

we we've got such a cross-section of

people from different countries etc here

and different colours we've not quite

got that into the management side of the

game you know certainly in a plane and

equally if you were to exchange black

skin for the Muslim faith you've still

got a massive disconnect between the

fans I'm an anorak like this so I

actually the last was it I could get to

Arsenal Chelsea last FA Cup final what

was it

it was yeah so I went on Wikipedia to

work out how many of the players with

Muslims and I put together an eleven and

if you included the subs and a couple of

people over injured there's 11 people on

Associated both of you were both Muslims

and yet still we live in a country where

that that kind of notion of integration

is completely ignored football is

actually in many ways it shows paving

the way what we really are

yes we're all human beings I imagine a

broad and foreign countries famously

were at Barcelona

um it's less common now for English

players to go and play oh yeah I think

there's a reason for that go on de I

think we're English players are

generally reluctant to move we're all

quite happy with live in our little

island here don't we and we're all quite

homely and and it was the same in my day

but in my day it paid so much better

anywhere else it was triple quadruple

you do your salary by playing either in

Spain for one of the big boys or Italy

yes so there were quite a few players in

those days would go there well kings

remember mark Haley Liam Brady Kevin

Keegan went to Germany Tony Woodcock

there were you know if you went to to

Spain so you know it was also no job for

me it was a wonderful experience to go

to a place like Barcelona and who turns

that down but and a chance to learn

another language and things like that

but by and large there were quite a few

players that just went well a few quid

couple years get back home yes

whereas now they don't have to go

anywhere if they want I'd like to see

what the world's calling well everyone

that the salaries here are so high

they're as high as they are well there's

all the exceptions of Ronaldo people

like that the salaries here is very

competitive so therefore when we're

getting an influx of top players not

just staying here but also an influx

coming

so there's an inkling there wasn't there

which would none of us would have

noticed at the time of the the linic of

the social justice warrior who was two

decades further down the tracks because

when you went to Barcelona you you tried

to really embrace Spanish culture there

was none of that kind of living in a get

in in it in a footballer's ghetto you

learnt the language you put down roots

in the country

or tried to yeah there were no football

in ghettos in those days nothing but big

walls houses and stuff like that but um

but yeah I deliberately avoided the

expat society because I just thought

this is a unique opportunity to learn a

language where did that come from go

because I've got I've got this image of

you on your dad's market stall in

Leicester while on the books at lest

there is a schoolboy I don't I don't

know enough about you to to say with any

certainty but presumably if you're on

the books of a club you're not going to

hit the real books at school quite as

hard as you would otherwise right I

didn't probably no you're right though I

didn't you know looking back now if I

was advising the young me yes I'd have

said you know you've got a degree I'm

telling you should go work harder I mean

I've got past the 11 plus I got to

grammar school and all that but then

football and cricket took over and that

was sport was good will you at cricket I

was I thought I'd add more chance at

cricket than football

I'm a prostitute you made the countess's

krickstein and I got my football

opportunity came alive I played the

County Schools a few years ago so yeah I

thought I had a chance at that more than

football but the footballs opportunity

came along first and then cricket took a

back seat so your brain was was big and

active but didn't have a lot to chew on

is that fair like you know I used enjoy

writing to write match reports yes when

I decide this interests formal stuff

it's a journalist screaming together all

alone that's what what I wanted to do if

I didn't make it right I wanted I would

have been a sports journalist yes which

I'm sorry I suspect is the reason most

sports journalists end up being sports

journalist players probably green card

doing

right so there was that engagement with

the world around you the desire to

actually understand things because that

is I guess the difference between the

the instinctive player and the player

who could also write a match report at

the end of the game is you want to

understand you want to unpick it you

want to dismantle it and work out how it

all fits together like very much so

really I used to I mean I don't I wasn't

particularly gifted as a as a as a

footballer I mean I didn't have a

brilliant touch I couldn't dribble past

you now well am I you know the only way

I could ever beat anyone was think I was

very quick yes I was quick in my mind so

I yes and I used to think about the game

and I worked out how to score goals I

and and the other thing that I was I was

given was a very very cool hair dye very

even second card never got nervous never

got angry yeah never tackled anyway so

yeah so I was given those things but I

didn't have you know any kind of

brilliant technique or I had to work

really hard at my torch and stuff like

that and your coach is probably why I

was at more of a late developing right

yes game was more about Thornton yes

like building blocks that you were

putting together knowing that what would

work and what wouldn't from watching

other players and from working out where

you weigh so you would never have

described yourself as an instinctive no

not not similar I was most of my goals

when I was young with balls over the

tops I was really quick just outrunning

people and one on ones the goalkeeper

which was always I quite enjoyed and but

not being three players and curling in

the top corner I never did that my life

this this might sound like a rude

question but it's linked to what we're

talking about with regard to school and

and and the study um did you read a lot

of books when you were young did you

yeah you did okay then it's not a rose

then it's not a rude question to see

this thoughtfulness going on challenged

on unchecked so so that puts you on a

slightly different metaphorical Buster

ball is James this book yes of course

yeah

- I would take the mother of all

kickings for the besties to read a

national newspaper UK you kept your ins

card you it was unfair that portrayal of

footballers is big yeah this is a

cross-section of a society you know some

of them are some of them are daft some

of them have drink problems yes some of

them are very intelligent some of them

will read a lot some of them won't read

at all they'll have all sort there just

a cross-section of working-class lads

that have come up and then quite well

some of them can handle that

some of them cars yeah so we are um did

you I knew your lads to go into the game

or did they were all keen I went I used

to watch them and support them the

middle two were quite good Harry Bertie

never really loved it enough and Tobias

was on one third was on Chelsea's books

was Academy for a couple years but he

had that was good status and the

condition thing even both needs out for

two and half years but I think by his

own admission he probably wouldn't have

been quite good enough anyway buddy yeah

and you've got to be it has to be really

good and I think to be the son of a

tough player you've got be even better

cause good please so what do you get oh

I mean I remember George who buy his own

well him by himself he was not the best

player I remember

and he always when he was very tiny you

say I want to be a football I want to

feel football and and I used to watch

him anything and then it weighs about 11

or 12 1 knives putting him to bed and he

said daddy sit up I don't think I'm

gonna be good enough to be a footballer

I just didn't know well you know it's

gonna be difficult but I used to stand

on the touchline

don't get started on this or on with

parents and watching for the kids play

football they live in their lives

through the children they are they're so

desperate for them to make it to it's

it's it's having the opposite effect

completely opposite in fact they put

instill fear into the grades this gets

better do it's ridiculous I just get

better parents conce amazed at all I

thought I thought he might be might be

better yeah better than he is and I said

well we see you know why well you know

you with yes well his mother was wrong

I've done watch for my nine-year-old it

sports a couple of years ago she was

nine another dad was showing they just

wish we could bring in this thing where

parents were said nothing yes nothing

apart from applause yeah it's not gonna

make much difference or well make a lot

of difference no I mean yes exactly

you're not gonna have a negative impact

I've been quiet spent yeah therefore

boys listen what's the standing on

search somewhere I never ever shouted

anything ever listening to big people

give the worst possible advice to their

own children and other children in the

team shouting complete nonsense 99.9% at

the time yes um does it clearly you

genuinely do rise above all of the flack

that's directed out you for sticking

your head above the parapet what about

when your personal life gets into the

papers that must be harder to pay yeah

it's difficult there are special I mean

though when they write on truths

yes I'm powerless often I've only

recently discovered things written but

I'll tell you what sir you'll get used

to this what's wrong good things about

he exactly eventually one of the good

things about social media though it

gives you a right of reply yes would you

never used to have that I mean I've seen

stories about myself and other people

that I know that completely wrong yes

completely made-up nonsense I mean it

takes six months to any shiny vehicle

you had available to you is trying to so

and now it took such a long or arduous

process that was dragged out

deliberately to put you off ever doing

it and it was dangerously expenses if he

didn't win dangerously expensive whereas

at least on Twitter now you see

something that's wrong hmm that's

actually a false story about you you can

go straight away to especially if you've

got big following which perhaps more

than will read the paper in two versions

it becomes very trees

wrong yes yeah and people will then help

you side with you and it gets out there

and it reaches so many more people than

than ten years ago no right of reply at

all ten years ago was going you had no

chat standing on a street corner with a

loudhailer be your only real cm

McFarlane yesterday picture of the front

page exactly that completely fabricated

nonsense when follows in the star has

read yes it right in the power there's a

changing the parent and that's what they

don't like and that's why they tend to

try and perhaps have a go on your

thoughts or a little concern yes if

especially if if we don't agree with

them yes now I'm fascinated by this I

got my first because obviously I'd you

know if you were here I'm somewhere down

there I got turned over properly by did

you see and its might was Twitter it

wasn't even the radio show it's hurtful

isn't it I mean I don't care who you are

no it's hopefully in a way yeah I mean

there's also that bit like you that goes

all right then do something right but of

course you'd rather everybody liked you

you don't want to be the person that and

I trying to unravel that this what you

just said there about they don't like

anybody having a view that challenges

the thing they're selling no it's I mean

it's fine I'll have their views do what

they want of course but don't go

personal personal attacks just because

you don't like what someone thinks I

don't that's why I can't comprehend ya

know that so he has a different view to

you so that's what the world's about

will have different views on all sorts

of different things yes but it doesn't

mean say you've got to be revengeful and

try and attack them personally it's

that's the modus operandi become worse

than it's ever been I think with Bexar

and trump it's almost well I think we're

in a I think we're in a moment it's

almost the watershed moment the thing to

either be watershed moment for good and

continue going down this slippery slope

I love how that would end yeah it's

quite chilling um you and Lily Allen

probably the who's done unfiltered

already it's like crossing the streams

for the edits for the mail that have to

have you to uh if there ever did you

find it I mean you're all of a sudden

you yeah I've gone from those might have

former newspaper journalist

I wasn't very good at it but um I mean

I'm buying very pro newspapers any sure

I just we don't understand this new

breed this new strain I was freaked out

by it actually a lot of great things

yeah I think sometimes the other side of

it lets the real journalists down of

course it blends but they're not brave

enough to stand up against it because

they'd either I'd use the word brave

because because oh well you have to be

really brave to stand up to your own and

you'd have to not be able to pay your

bills next month you have to be really

brave I see what you mean Oh Matt or

what here but so I get how difficult it

can be from I mean I'll get direct

messages from from Jeff yeah I'm sure

freelance would never name them because

it won't be good to say when we're

absolutely on your side I'm really sorry

it's difficult you know standing a

embankment station minding my own

business but it comes off a stands next

to me goes alright James it's like

something out of Smiley's bit happens to

be occasionally not like it does the I

just want to say I'm great what you're

doing with regard to the mayor at the

moment why are you whispering it I'm a

senior but they're decent normal people

and yet there's this doing a job that I

mean I'm sure they disappointing on

occasion of course actually that's

that's the thing I'm getting from you

which is quite reassuring to me the

baffle knows where does it leave what's

the point is a unless there is just one

size fits all one flavor of ice cream

foot foot for the whole country have you

ever had because if we take October 2016

as the kickoff point with the post FIFA

comments when you start tweeting about

refugees in what you've described very

clearly as an utterly unremarkable

response to a human tragedy have you

ever thought I might why my neck in for

a bit now or I might just take that

fourth I'm not gonna hang up my I don't

overdo it

no as well I know I think it's trying to

find I think if I'm really really upset

about something or I feel it's worthy of

comment and I'll then I'll do it and

I've never deliberately thought actually

maybe I shouldn't no mention anything

political environment I mean I don't

really put out there my political no you

don't area

humanitarian views rather than political

I mean obviously there are things that

you see that the government might do

feel strongly about but you know I've

never sided with one party in particular

or the other I've never said who I vote

for but it's it's for me humanitarian

issues are important and obviously I

don't agree with brexit I get that a lot

of people do fine I just can't yet see

anything that will be good about it

[Laughter]

again like you I'm waiting for the

overdose someone comes along as a zero

maybe hope okay I fear that it's the

children you worry all right but we're

kind of leaving this locker

good yeah genuinely good yeah not poor

no no nothing's perfect when it's you

know the political world it's definitely

very little especial times but you know

it's kind of worked in its own way for a

long time we've had peace for a long

time

whereas who knows I to that we used to

have wars with a couple of okay just

chunk out the Germans have a crack at

the French vice versa Spanish it's

interesting you say that because I don't

think apology political is the right

word to describe I prefer humanitarian

and I like wouldn't put money on how you

do vote because presumably you can

compare what do they say is sort of I

presumably don't want a top tax rate of

95 percent like we had there are the

things I agree with on both sides okay

yes and there are things I disagree with

on both sides rageous you need to be

more like a football fan yeah though you

these yes that's almost like it is it to

say something negative say about the

Tory Party on occasion yeah as you love

Jeremy called me it means you love

Jeremy Corbyn and if you say if you

criticize Jeremy Corbyn you love my

that's nice pushing it but my dad did

yes

so it's you know you soon as you put

your head a little bit

it's a family business you're in the

Thatcher's I know that's right you're

bad probably so you say you should have

been Prime Minister be prouder of um

it's interesting actually because you

were in Liverpool in the mid eighties

Everton for one season I know but that

dressing room must have been one of the

most political football dressing rooms

Hatton was always hanging around me yes

still is Neville Southall is giving you

a run for your money on social media as

a moment he's actually dev was pretty

close to across to me mother Teresa and

yeah it was it was a big political

environment Everts in that season that

dressing room or is this my theory go

slowly shot down in flames by some of

there was actually there that's good

that's fine no change I've changed a lot

different things you do you think about

different things as you get older and

you perhaps worrying a little bit more

about things you should get older as

well and you you think more deeply about

certain areas that we've done and we've

all done that and but it was a good

dressing room yeah team I played for

sure how do you mean it was the best

team well in terms of how everything

slotted together

yeah idea I was in idea word up them a

bit longer but yeah Barcelona came

knocking the club except the bed so I'm

sorry and you have no say in there at

all no I didn't have to go right but

when a club comes to so I've accepted a

bear do you think oh well I'm not really

that wanted and he was like that in

those days he's different now he said

the player has much more power yes but

it wasn't you know it wasn't via route

via reals no it was it was Barcelona so

it wasn't terrible was that with end I

think you may have answered this

question of all the club's he played for

the first time you ran out onto the

pitch in a home game but was Barcelona

the one that made you feel my boss those

huge so he after know many magical Kurds

it was 120,000 about that and Ernie do

you just come out of the tunnel which

the the level of the pitch is actually

it's a lot lower than the outside at the

ground so when you come up yeah

different here below the pit below this

actual ground leveled off and then you

you go out the tunnel on themselves I

mean to the pitch and it was oh my god

it just goes really close to the

pitchers just great or are you entirely

kind of DIY because like a magpie you

just look around you know I agree with

this thing that thing then things I

don't like and yes I've done you know

I've never been kind of help me not

found it quite difficult to vote for

never the last couple of lectures gonna

be even harder I know it's a lot of

homeless political but yeah politically

I felt like that for some time would it

then would it have been brave of you to

refuse to do the FIFA draw the other way

the other Bay because you've been so

outspoken critic of yeah yeah yeah

that's change I'm happy to explain why I

did it I contact a lot of debate new

people with and it would an over a

period of time they convinced me that

they really really do want to change it

now hopefully they don't let me down

there's more in football as involved I

was being too van Basten who's involved

now Figo they're an in particular boban

right who's

tightly Secretary Shirl or something but

he's very high up on the ladder and

boban in particularly is hugely

impressive he loves football and he's

desperate to change things for the good

now do you just stay outside when

somebody to approach you like that or do

you try and get inside and influence

them and change things for the good

because I care about football and that's

why I did that's that's exactly why I

did it I have meetings out there I spent

hours with with the president I spent

hours with boban and um I remember

sitting them in restaurants and this is

your opportunity that you can have a

real legacy for good in football you can

make change it's really not easy really

not easy for them because they come in

and they you know they can be hoofed out

instead of all yeah but you know I I

plead my case with them and for me to

have that opportunity to do I think was

was important I didn't do it for money

I've given the whole gave the whole fee

to the British Red Cross

it wasn't interested it wasn't a money

thankful and also it was so you were

saying your support to the new regime in

a way saying I was trying to influence

the new race yes I'm not I'm not

supporting them yet until they prove to

me okay and and football that they

genuinely will do what they say they

will do now and I have a lot of trust

particularly boban and the football

people that are involved and hopefully

they'll make a difference but you know

they deserve a little bit of a push a

little bit of support along the way cuz

the person I battered and battered and

battered was bratter

yes and Ernie's cronies and that old God

and pretty much all of them now are

either suspended in jail pending arrest

etcetera etcetera they've all that

nearly all gone by the handful and yes

there is still issues that need

resolving but some of them need time and

so what would have been achieved by you

not doing it is pertinent as well isn't

it because it wouldn't matter if I could

could have made it slow and you said

well I was asked but it was how did he

get so rotten I mean sort of someone a

lot closer to it for most of your life

how did he get so rotten so it made me

feel sick a lot there are the levels of

corruption and even some of the things

that they they told me which I can't say

how bad the previous regime yes

they're trying to do to change it and

how the the expenditure massively going

down and I you know it's not being naive

and don't know I don't know but you know

that's all thing you can piss outside

the tent yeah it's true

um and and the reaction then which I

what hadn't been aware to like that I

just did a little bit of swatting up

before us who are you the this of course

is the same Linacre who has been one of

FIFA's most visceral it's the same these

three years ago said FIFA's nauseating

corruption made him feel sick advisor I

still say yes no and I genuinely mend

that and but we have got a new garden

and and hopefully they will be

considerably better and infantino proved

that but I'm you know I'm not I think it

would be difficult for them but I think

they've already made massive changes

with it and the scrutiny has not the

scrutinized they want to make the the

elections for the next World Cup bids

totally open so that everyone can see

who's bidding for everyone so that's a

star I automatically it takes away the

obvious you know bribery things a little

bit yes and it does read like something

Mario Puzo might have written doesn't it

some of the star means he'll know more

than the rest of us do but it is it's

almost as if dream up any example of

corruption and then double it and it

happened it's beyond belief yes it was

truly awful but you know they needed an

new broom yeah it needed to you know

just get rid of the old guard and bring

someone else in and let's hope these new

people that won you know part of this

before let's hope they're much better I

sense they are especially with boban

Bert's we watch this space watch this

space and and if they don't let ball

game down I'll be back on their case no

kidding yeah well that's a lovely thing

isn't it that's a lovely thing about

what you have become

sort of almost by accident is that now

you do actually have credibility in the

in the sense of these will know that

you'll be telling the truth next time

you if you do decide that you need not

have a bit of weight in the game that

has been so good to me over

did you ever fancy going down that route

English players do it very often I don't

think many players do it no not many I

mean a flirtini most obvious city

exactly covering something yeah yeah of

course I mean I knew Michelle used a

wonderful football

it was quite you know effervescent guy

you could see I'd done well B he let

himself down you let the game down no

football is down no glory in the

backroom job neither is that I don't

mean glory in a negative sense I mean it

in that magical whirling of yes I

suppose this power yes because I've

known as we've never had any kind of

feeling having wanted to have any kind

of power so I never you know I also

don't like playing that let's be nice to

everyone political thing that everyone

has to do exam yeah you are mr. nice who

is the last person you were horrible to

serious question Oh will mean try not to

be mean yeah but you must be sometimes

you know put a few way my own style on

Twitter yes this is sure and I've had a

popper a few so I've been a mean to

people died perhaps this is a really

really really deserved how do you do you

ration it yourself because you could

it's easy to get into a vortex isn't it

especially when you could see so much

poison yeah as you are you just get a

bit of poison on there but yeah most of

the time I ignore it rise above it I

don't look too much of the notification

no occasionally I'll see one or two

things um so so occasionally I love a

little little bite it is a cesspit and

it is um in place haters out spite

briefly before we started recording so I

got a comment whether we said this on or

off okay but there was that sense that

social media has become like a football

crowd that sense that it is now yeah it

was before it was so good was to again

it was it's open season the way that you

can attack a public figure in particular

or even a non public figure it would

only at one point I've been football is

there ever and probably black

footballers they ever got exposed to

that kind of well we all got the hatred

as football I certainly I mean you still

see it now on the terrace hatred at the

faces and stuff you never really

received that person

until perhaps social media came along

and then all of a sudden the people with

the the venneman anger inside them they

vent and they and they can do it

directly to you here so it's incredible

so it's kind of weird especially since

I've come out term in terms of you know

showing a social conscience

humanitarianism we call it whatever you

like I've had probably more love than

I've ever heard but I've also had way

more hate that have even noticed before

hooks and again I never ever get that in

the street I they never have the kind of

I don't know whether the bravery or the

to come up to and give you so you I

don't like your views or whatever never

get that no it's getting chair inside

bullets a bit you'd like to think they

would be too ashamed and embarrassed

rather than it necessarily being and I

think actually most of them if you

actually been and they did say what they

said energy you talk them out of it you

go actually often come on I did this

thing come on off yeah I mean you do you

don't I've done it with people who've

texted in yeah not not intending to

speak to me I've given a ring in the

commercial power do you really mean

there you want my wife to get cancer she

talk this through me you don't know yeah

I'm not encouraged to do it but but um

but but the numbers there so and and

you're right they do often when you just

hold up the mirror they see what they

look like and they just call Christ

sorry I didn't mean I was just a bit of

fun and they don't really think I mean I

don't think most people most people are

good they have to be most people are

going after but what you get them the

ones that want to engage on Twitter

though they're the ones the few that are

angry yes yeah where is most people go

that's funny or that's quite me I agree

with him or I don't agree with him I

don't know I think 99% of people like

that but you notice it because it's the

1% of course it's the soundest you know

the loudest it's their chance to and

they're that and you also noticed the

one that's really nasty you don't notice

the really nice things that's just human

nature again like you said before we all

want everyone to like a little bit of a

sociopath in which case I know at the

Daily Mail

that carrot so everybody's thanks here

do you worry about your children growing

up in this kind of environment albums in

my life worrying about children

different ages different concerns as

they you know as the roles progress and

then when they get to adulthood and you

you know afford a house what job they're

gonna do all that kind of thing and why

is their future in them and I mean the

world's a little bit in flux

yeah it's good I thought you would have

thought if football didn't work and

whatever job you ended up doing that you

like your dad would have done it right

up until retirement yeah it would have

been roaming you but you would have

progressed within a structure and you'd

had done well but you wouldn't have run

the risk of hitting 40 and and having to

start all over again it's it's a very

different economic world it's it really

is in all sorts and you know and the

safety of the world at the moment so you

know so many places around the world

that are in turmoil we're numb when

George was poorly when it went George

had leukemia from which he made a full

and frank recovery did you come out of

that experience changed do you think or

almost no I think I always had a sense

of perspective and realized you know I

suppose I've always had a you know

charmed life in this so it was so you

started to wonder but it has to have

effect on you something like that I mean

it was it was an unbelievably traumatic

few months I mean two or three times

they told he eat very unlikely make it

through the night really and living that

was they brutal so it has to have some

kind of effect on you for sure what that

was I mean people say oh did it give you

a big more perspective well I always had

some degree of perspective but it's

gonna enhance that internality why is

important in life is it important that

you score two goals at the weekend well

of course it is but it's not as

important as me as son lives or dies I

mean you'd be I mean how anyone couldn't

understand that

oh but yeah I suppose it did in many

ways but yeah there's a little miracle

in many ways George very close on you -

yeah it's lovely they're great they're

good fun now

enjoy your company yeah well they were

embarrassed to be Gary Lineker sons I

think parents always embarrass that

you're not a normal parent mate so young

boys footy this where I sat down

breakfast told the story a few times

Drago's was that when George was about

ten eleven he's in Manchester United

found he used to love daily betting when

I was reading the paper and there's a

big picture of Beckham on it and he just

he just said God wouldn't it be great to

have David Beckham he's really good they

were they were a conscious of you as a

player though weren't they they were did

mean he was still playing when not quite

just I was that's quite a stare to ask

rule I don't mean the line is cruel the

line is brilliant but it would be nice

for them to be able to sort of just have

a sniff of your heyday from the inside

rather the restaurant actually with I

was having dinner with George and David

Beckham came in with Victoria like two

weeks ago

first I'd Swain so much fun does told

David the story I love it love it this

is a genuine question actually and it

could go almost anywhere do you have any

ambitions and I'm gonna rent the word

left Gary do you have any ambitions left

I want to be Prime Minister ambitions

left move could you see a complete lane

change again could you see yourself

doing something completely I've found a

couple of lane changes I know more than

most yeah although always with the

footballing flavor yeah exactly

I mean the one thing I've done in recent

in the last couple two three years is

starting my own production company with

my friend Tony yeah we've got a lifetime

in TV I mean he runs it my so and I'm

quite involved and do as much as I can

and stuff so that's quite that's been

quite fun be nice to build that up and

hopefully you know be able to employ a

few people etc and you have kind of how

long do you think I mean I think a lot

of it can throw a couple

I told her she was never gonna die I

don't know cancer are overdone honestly

so there he thought about it for ages he

thought about it for so long I was gonna

give him an odd job serious thought and

just Kimmy couldn't conceive of passing

away but I didn't mean that

I meant no I mean how long does Jo know

much that they kept going Jimmy I love

what I do

clearly never bought no I love football

I love watching the big games I love

broadcasting football so um you know

until I've I've certainly got no designs

on retirement the moment I get bored and

know no intention of stepping back not

yet not yet I'm sorry everyone

it's stuck with me for a bit I'm glad to

hear it Gary that was real a real

pleasure thank you guys good to me

likewise finally

[Music]

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