Should politics and sport ever mix?

lovely to have all of you with us and

Lisa I want to go to you first because

at a very young age you found yourself

in the crosshairs of politics and sport

with the Moscow Olympics and pressure

for athletes not to go what was that

like for you oh it was an extraordinary

time but I think that you know as we

just saw the Olympics or the 70s were an

amazing time anyway and Anthony will

tell you about the you know the the

rugby bands but so the first Olympics

that I ever read about I was eight years

old and I had to read out loud from the

newspaper to my dad to improve my

vocabulary and my reading and I read

about the girls the first week in Munich

with a chain gold and Gail Neil and Bev

Whitfield saved Australia's sporting

pride is the way there was written they

won five gold medals out of our total of

eight and the second week I read about

you know gunmen in the Israeli village

and and so I knew that the Olympics were

an incredible stage it was you know this

opportunity to go beyond your best and

at the same time it transcended sports

so you know I made the calculation I was

eight in 1972 and I'd be 16 in 1980

which would be the perfect you know age

at that time not knowing that that would

be Moscow and of course the the six

months prior to those games were

extraordinary and and it was one of

those things where you know prior to any

sort of media training it was

conversations around the dinner table

you know with mum and dad what do you

think and essentially as you say you

know sport has that extraordinary power

it's got the power that the rugby

players you know this rugby players

started with a party to actually say

this is what's going on and we are going

to take a stand but also it's got the

power to bring people together and that

was what we used to say about Moscow

like sport can build bridges that

politics breaks and of course Anthony

Abraham's sport can build bridges but

when you took a stand against sporting

ties with South Africa it was not a

popular thing to do was it it certainly

wasn't no and I was pretty much in a

quandary to decide whether I should um

go to South Africa because I had

documented myself pretty well before

that

and I consulted seven older and wiser

men than I who from the law and outside

the law and finally I decided that to go

partly because they said it would be the

foolish gesture of one who didn't know

if I didn't see it first and so I went

and very quickly saw the color of

apartheid what did that what did that do

for you Anthony to experience that

first-hand what impact did it have on

you it wasn't just me it was the whole

team I've been we were shocked by what

they call petit apart I the the the

notices on park benches reserving them

for black or white largely white the the

separated toilets and all the rest of it

and then there was the political side

where the rule of law was completely

undermined there was no longer any Jupe

Jupe process fair trials were only

maintained when the jury the judiciary

stood up which it did quite well at

times to the government and generally

you were in a well it was a police state

ellis cash-poor i want to bring you on

on this is the bigger question i suppose

we always hear whenever an athlete

stands up decides to challenge or

authority that they're told

stick to sport sport and politics do not

mix of course they're inseparable aren't

they yes it's a match made in heaven

isn't it Stan if you think about it

particularly nowadays because

practically every major sporting

tournament or event is publicized thanks

to a global media and that means that

you have enormous viewing audiences I

mean it's a natural theater so anybody

who has got a political point that they

want to make or an ideological platform

that they want to promote is naturally

going to be drawn to sport I mean you

could try and hijack the the Oscar

ceremonies or you know try and muscle in

on some TV show like The X Factor but

there's nothing quite like sport if you

really do want to get your political

message across so

that's what I mean by a match made in

heaven and I don't think they ever will

be separable I mean another thing to

remember about the Olympic stand is that

they were political from the outset in

the mid 19th century when the modern

Olympics were born the idea was to bring

nations together in the spirit of

harmony and to try to promote good

relations between nations of course

didn't quite work out as we know yeah

why don't you stay with you know I'll

come to Lisa in just a moment on this

point but we often look at the impact

that sport will have for good and to

bring about change in politics but quite

often in sports organizations and

countries that kowtow to repressive

regimes that the New Zealand rugby with

South Africa the English team would not

pick black players to travel the English

cricket team to travel to South Africa

they often they don't often take the

high ground do that no I don't think you

can do anything about individual

responsibilities in situations like this

there have been a number of cases where

the individual athletes have said one

thing and then the nations they

supposedly represent have said quite

another and I don't think we're ever

going to come to a conclusion one way or

another whether the sport and politics

is a good thing or a bad thing it's a

double-edged sword Stan isn't it because

you can look back I mean we've just had

an earlier reference to the the disaster

in Munich the massacre there and every

every right-thinking person in the world

is going to look back at that and think

what an awful catastrophic event that

was and that was politics and sport

mixing at its most menacing on the other

hand you've also referenced the 68

Olympics the Black Power salute we

thought at the time you know the wall

condemned Smith and Carlos and said you

know that they hardly competed ever

again and yet at the end of the 20th

century people look back on the great

sporting event and they thought my word

wasn't this a watershed moment and now

we realize in retrospect what a great

pivotal

symbolic gesture that was in 1968 and as

you quite rightly said earlier there has

been this this tidal movement starting

from the Gleneagles agreement to

ostracize South Africa and bring to the

attention of the world that they did had

this hideous system of party that they

were operating and I don't think we

should underestimate this the part

played by the boat played by the boycott

of South Africa in bringing about an end

to this regime so sport has played a

very important political part one way or

the other

looser I was just listening to illest an

athlete may say something and the

government may say something else that

was you that was your situation and you

were called were made to feel like a

traitor weren't you yeah and certainly

the shock jocks were calling is that I

mean the you know the Daily Telegraph

was saying we should have our passports

taken from us because you know it's a

privilege not a right of an Australian

passport I think that one of the

interesting you know that situations is

when we talk about the South African

apartheid change and everything that

Anthony and his group started was that

it was supported economic economically

as well there was you know the late Pat

Geraghty who was head of the seaman's

Union who was also very supportive of

the athletes raising money for us to go

to Moscow they were very much part of

supporting that that block of South

Africa whereas when it came to Moscow

that we weren't getting at sort of

support if it was a situation where we

could have changed the situation formed

women and children in Afghanistan then

of course you would do it but at the

same time you know everyone else no or

nobody else wanted to it we still wanted

to sell wheat we still want to sell wool

we still wanted to sell our minerals so

that was the difference I do think that

there's you know when we when we talk

about the men in the 200 meters in 1968

as well as our own Peter Norman who

didn't raise his hand but certainly wore

the badge that supported those men that

in many ways they know that they are

that continuum you know is alive today

with Colin Kaepernick taking the lead

with and so if we had equally condemned

with heard from Donald Trump and and

also what I think that one of the things

that we tend to think is that the money

will sort of keep everybody conservative

so these guys

like me I wasn't earning money Anthony

probably wasn't earning money even

though you know Tommy Tommy Smith

weren't earning money so we had

reputations ultimately it's we're

standing for something by Colin

Kaepernick you know lost his job like

these these up guys have had a lot of

money and so that is really interesting

too that they are willing to take that

stand and I think inspire others around

them Anthony we look at the impact of

what you helped begin there because you

wrote a letter and and that public

letter saying that the Australia should

reconsider sporting ties with South

Africa all those years later the end of

apartheid Mandela is president they hold

the the Rugby Union World Cup in South

Africa and he seizes that moment what

did that do to unify the country I think

it was one of the most sublime moments

of the political gesture in the sport

constituting a very major unifying

element in South Africa when he took

what decided to wear Francois Pienaar

that spring got captain's number six

jersey and walked out onto that field it

was probably one of the great sporting

moments and one of the great political

gestures and I think there are there are

other circumstances where an individual

athlete has pushed forward the awareness

of a particular issue Cathy Freeman just

running around the field after her wins

were leading up to the the Sydney

Olympics and you know with the

aboriginal flag around her shoulders and

and look there there are there are a

number of others it's probably quite

surprising Muhammad Ali for example yeah

well absolutely there's probably quite

surprising that the that sport hasn't

been used more blatantly in situations

than it has been and I think I think

that raises the issue of when it's

appropriate if you like and when it's

not oh I'm gonna bring it burn to bring

Ellis in on this Ellis and going back to

when the the games became ultra

politicized 1936 Munich in Germany yeah

of course Hitler seizing not down that

is an expression of Nazi power and a

televised games and a man named Jesse

Owens spoils the party for it

yeah well he didn't he didn't he he won

his events and obviously that was taken

as a slight against Hitler personally

and of course his or the the entire

ideological thrust of Nazism but in

another sense it was a great triumph for

Hitler because he showed the world that

he was able administrative Lee to to run

a gigantic show quite smoothly as well

and it went without noticeable hitches

so the idea of it was and still is I

suppose in a certain sense if you were

able to stage an Olympics you've arrived

on the world stage you're are a global

power that's exactly what he wanted to

prove you know one thing stunned that we

haven't mentioned so far and I and

forgive me for moving the discussion a

little bit too quickly but I think we

have seen one of the most historically

important political dimensions of sport

over the past 18 months two years I'm

talking about the the condemnation and

the disqualification of russia from

olympic games and not only their Olympic

teams but their Paralympian teams have

also been disqualified because of this

so-called state-sponsored doping now I'm

asked time and again is this political

what course it is this is one of the

great political developments in sport

because we have a Canadian professor who

has conducted an investigation into

Russian doping and I don't get me wrong

I'm not saying doping doesn't go on in

Russian any more than it goes on in

every other country in the world but

Russia has been seeing all that and of

course he authored a report that alleges

state-sponsored doping emptor

state-sponsored it was just on that I

want to bring Lisa read on that if you

consider your experience Lee so I don't

want to remind you of what of what was

potentially a bad experience you've

often said that you you felt you let

Australia down because you didn't

perform as you would have wished in your

event in Moscow but that experience

going

through that the pressure of performance

the pressure of the politics just

listening to what Ellis has to say then

about the tainting of games with doping

did you ever lose that faith in the

Olympic movement I don't think so I

think it's you know one of those things

I often think it's like you know there's

that kind of there are just some people

who want to run away with the circus

like I think there's just some of us who

get somehow we want to run away with

that circus and so of course there's

politics I mean I'm probably one of the

you know in many ways swimming is the

oddest sport in the the sense that we're

kind of self selecting if you come first

and if your becomes second at least in

Australia and make the qualifying time

you're in there's politics everywhere

also use just even with the when I wrote

boycott I used to say to everyone when I

was interviewed look no politics in

sport is very different to the politics

of sport it's it's all pervasive but I

think you know ultimately there are

those ideals that we all have if we're

drawn to it like you know the idea of

sportsmanship of courage of fairness of

kind of pushing ourselves to limit

tonight and I think that's probably why

we do respond to athletes when I mean

yes people get angry you know maybe it

actually taking a stand but I think the

majority of people want to be able to

take a stand they admire and Adam good

so they admire and a Colin Kaepernick or

Muhammad Ali because they stand for

something I think that's a willingness

and even if they condemned at the time

we know that history has a way of

reversing that later Muhammad Ali is a

great example we're out of time a

terrific conversation you dimension your

book their boycott Lisa Lisa did write a

book

boycott about about that a long time ago

I'm sure you can still find it somewhere

less cash more terrific to talk to you

and Anthony Abrams good to talk nice to

see you again thanks very much for that