Question Time | 15th June 2023 | Boris Johnson Lied to Parliament

[Music]

tonight as Boris Johnson is officially

branded a liar by a committee of MP

setup when he was prime minister he

calls it the deranged conclusion of a

kangaroo court well our audience here

certainly wants to discuss that but also

for many the rather more pressing matter

of rising bills and food prices and

today we're in a rather special location

the distribution Depot of Iceland the

food retailer which has over a thousand

stores in the UK we're in D side the

name for the group of towns on either

side of the Welsh English border welcome

to question time thank you

[Music]

on the panel from the government David

TC Davis the Secretary of State for

Wales before that he was a junior

Minister under Boris Johnson and after

his resignation as an MP last week David

TC Davis said Boris Johnson got it right

on Ukraine on vaccines and brexit and

I'm sorry he's gone from labor Lord

David blunkett he was an important part

of the new labor project under Tony

Blair serving as education and

employment and then most prominently

Home Secretary in the early 2000s now

he's in the House of Lords and is

Professor of politics in practice in his

home City at Sheffield University

Charlotte ivis is the political

correspondent for times radio she also

contributes to the new Statesman and

writes about other things mostly

cultural for the Sunday Times gito Harry

is a Communications specialist writer

and broadcaster his most recent TV stint

was as a presenter on GB news he's also

a man who knows Boris Johnson very well

he was at University with him worked

with him when he was London mayor and

was his head of communications for most

of his last year as prime minister and

the third final David on tonight's panel

David Linden is one of the smp's 45 MPS

in the House of Commons he was elected

in 2017 to the city of Glasgow East ages

27 he speaks for the SNP on social

justice

foreign

good evening Welcome to our panel

welcome to audience here in decide in

this great big Warehouse going to see

you and of course welcome to you at home

as well thank you for watching we're on

social media as always and we're also on

a podcast on BBC sounds after the

program remember hit subscribe if you

want to continue listening so

it's been quite a day

should we get our first question Emma

given the outcome of the party gate

inquiry does the panel think that Boris

Johnson's political career is finally

dead and buried

David TC Davis

I think it probably is

um I'm not saying whether that's a good

thing or a bad thing but I don't really

see any way back for bars I mean he's

just left Parliament he's resigned he

chose to do that and that's fine any MP

who's had enough can can resign when

they want to uh had he stayed he would

have been suspended for 90 days so faced

uh well possibly that depends on on how

that almost certainly would have faced a

by-election and and therefore I I think

uh I think that is the case um and I

hope he's going to be remembered for the

things I mentioned I I believe he was

absolutely right on the Ukraine he was

right on getting the vaccine rollout

sorted out and he was right on brexit

somebody had to deliver brexit because

people had voted for it and if I were

Boris Johnson I would want to be

remembered for those things and not for

the sort of unseemly rowing that's going

on at the moment

um we move on we have uh prime minister

Rishi sunak is doing in my opinion an

absolutely fantastic job delivering on

the five pledges he made around

inflation and growth and stopping small

boats and cutting waiting lists in

England where we can do it and I want

Rishi to be able to get on with the job

and to be the Prime Minister after the

next election so will you be voting for

the committee report on Monday I haven't

read the report yet which came out this

morning I've been traveling around North

Wales all day

no I well I haven't read the full 90

pages and as a former select committee

chair for 10 years I I do tend to do

that before I make decisions but what I

can say is I have every confidence that

the committee were doing the right thing

I have confidence in the committee and

the people who are on that Committee of

all parties so I I can say no more than

that and the report which I haven't read

yet I've read all the headlines about it

is uh it's clearly concerning so my I I

want to make it very clear that I

respect the work that the committee have

done and so when Boris Johnson calls it

the deranged conclusion that's the

kangaroo Court yeah that's certainly not

not something I would uh support at all

no the the committee members

long-standing members of parliament very

experienced

um they went into this in a great deal

of detail and you know I whatever people

may think about Johnson I've already

said I've got a lot of time for him on

on those big issues and he saved this

country by the way from Jeremy corbyn

but um the the work of that report needs

of that committee needs to be respected

Lord blanket Ash I'm going to call you

David B because that's what you've

requested we've got three Davids on the

panel so you're going to be TC you're

going to be David and you're gonna be

David B well I'm I'm very pleased that

this David is so enthusiastic about uh

the current prime minister because

you'll remember you you voted for list

trust so you you can't paint but

vocabulary

[Applause]

I think you'll find that I spent three

years from the day after Jeremy was

elected saying this was going the wrong

way uh and wrote and spoke about it

anyway that's by the by what we're

dealing with is this character this uh

phenomena Boris Johnson that has sucked

the life out of the rest of the

political Arena and all the real issues

that we need to deal with and I I've

been reflecting over the last seven days

and we've had the demise of belasconi

we've had Boris uh take himself out of

parliament then blame everybody else

that he's gone and we've had Trump in

court in the United States I think we've

had the Dead The Departed and the

demented and uh I I think the

the sooner the sooner we actually come

to terms with the fact that Boris had

his go he had his term uh he had the

opportunity during covid when he came

out of hospital to reinvent himself to

be a serious prime minister and he

didn't and it's not the parties it's

what he happened what happened at the

dispatch box this isn't about whether

people had parties and slurring other

people about whether they had them

during lockdown this is a a tradition as

part of our Constitution that if as a

minister and as prime minister you lie

at the dispatch box you have to go and

that applied to profumo 60 years ago

with the Scandal over Christine Keeler

and the the Russian Envoy who is having

an affair with her at the time and it

applies to Boris Johnson he set up by

the way he set up the inquiry into

himself

he actually was responsible as prime

minister and with the conservative party

for nominating the committee including

the four that made up the majority for

the conservatives he was quite happy

with Harriet Harman until things started

to be unraveled and he was quite happy

to finish on this because you'll nudge

me otherwise

it's quite happy to take 245

000 pounds of public money to pay for

arguably the most effective legal team

in the country to defend him and then he

has the cheat to blame the committee the

the parliament even his conservative

colleagues he's only got one person to

blame it's Boris Johnson

[Applause]

who's up let's hear from some of you yes

the woman in the pink dress in front

here I'm actually quite concerned by

your response saying you think it should

it's not a thing you should he lied as

David blanket said the fact that he lied

means he should never be an MP again is

there no Integrity left in politics is

it okay to lie then Mom I can't I can't

uh stop somebody from standing for

Parliament and I can't stop them from

being elected what I'm what I've said to

you is I think his time in office is

over I wouldn't support something is you

said you think it should be as well

it's not a set of rules for them there

is no set rule but there is nothing to

stop anybody including yourself or

anyone in this room from standing for

Parliament and winning an election I

have no say over that I guess what I'm

looking for is more for concrete no we

don't we don't expect what about this

one do you think you should should stand

as a conservative MP ever again

um do you know it's not actually up to

me today

let me be clear with you I support Rishi

sunak and I would not support anyone

standing against him and I've been very

clear with you tonight that I think

people should look at that report and

understand that the people who wrote it

the well-respected MPS and actually as

David blunkett just said that report was

uh that that committee was set up by

Boris Johnson and we should respect

their findings

I'm not a fan of Boris

um I think he told too many lies you

know

but I think Boris could make a comeback

and it's not because he's particularly

special but it's rather because of the

inability of the establishment

politician to tap into what people want

Boris you know had his faults but at

least he spoke in plain English he had a

bold and Clear Vision unlike his

predecess unless his unlike his

successor Richie sunak he's just looking

very about politician no real plan just

you know honestly I think that's very

important the woman at the very back and

then the woman at the very back yes now

that it's established that Boris Johnson

has lied what else has he lied about has

he lied about brexit has he sold us a

big lie

okay kitchen

um he was never going to go quietly one

of his favorite films is Butch Cassidy

and Sundance Kid so what's happened

today was always going to happen he'd

rather go out in a you know flurry of of

bullets a bullet yeah and uh he says he

says he he says he did not lie the

committee has found that he did lie

what's your view I think you know

without without personally attacking the

committee I think anyone is entitled to

question

whether there's right due process when

your political opponent a former acting

leader of the labor party presides over

a process that can actually deprive you

of your employment for three months and

indeed for the rest of your life now if

kyostarma his beer and Curry Nights With

Friends during lockdown was handed over

to Dominic Robb or William Hague to

decide whether that was a breach I would

have a problem with that I would not

think that was a fair process but there

are majority of conservatives it doesn't

matter this is not about it this is not

the numbers opposition the committee

always has an opposition chair you know

that this is a quasi-judicial process

that should not be the whim of the

numbers in the House of Commons so do

you disagree with the committee then is

that what you're saying I don't think do

you disagree with it people of of their

livelihood you need to be Beyond

reproach and the idea that the former

leader of the labor party can decide

essentially on the process and the

outcome that drives out a conservative

prime minister from Parliament for me

whether you like Boris or not does not

look like due process but and one of the

things we throw overboard far too easily

in the UK is the idea of innocent until

proven guilty the idea that you are

represented by a lawyer when your

livelihood is at stake the idea that you

have proper due process and the person

who decides is above reproach I don't

think we met that standard on this

occasion whatever out whatever you do

yeah he had David Panic who's by

anybody's standards one of the most

outstanding barristers in the country at

our expense and and if he hadn't

resigned last Friday night he could have

gone into Parliament on Monday and

defended himself against the accusations

have been made to go to why don't you

think he did nobody wants to interview

for their own job particularly under the

horrendous situation that he would be in

we'll get a drought kicking screaming to

a by-election and all that so he said

let's be clear are you saying then that

you do not agree with the conclusions of

the selecting I understand why Boris

feels uh sort of slightly cheated by the

process but more important

question are you saying the privilegious

committee is wrong

it it's it's I understand why there are

questions about the process what I'm

more concerned okay you're still not

answering that millions of people who

voted bought for Boris and who voted

conservative of the last election having

perhaps never been engaged with politics

certainly never dreamed in places like

the North Wales Corridor of voting

conservative voted for a man that spoke

to them in a way they've never been

spoken before and the system has taken

him out and I think I think some people

will be shocked by what has happened

he's not an MP it was the conservative

MP is that well they deserted him and

that's in the end

I think well let's hear from some of

these people show yes the woman there

with a rather fantastic pink hair thank

you

um I think the main problem we have here

is that for the vast majority of people

this is not important I understand in

the Westminster bubble why it's so

important because he was your colleague

your friend it might happen to you

because let's face it no offense or

politicians lie it's part of the job

but for the rest of us there are so many

in the things that are happening

you know women are in danger children

are in danger and everything the oxygen

is being sucked out of all the things

that actually matter well you it's a

very well made point we are going to

come to other subjects I have to say you

asked more about this than anything else

which is what we started with it but I

absolutely hear what you have to say

this lady is right but but not on one

point which is standards in public life

really really do matter they do honestly

yes

[Applause]

t-shirt yes you had your hand up

yeah so you say he should be innocent

until proven guilty he has been proven

guilty everybody knows who's guilty and

to argue that he could still possibly be

innocent of this lie that everyone knows

he's told it just feels like denying

like the obvious truth right well let's

let's see if

bit more on our panel then Charlotte I

thought I might talk a bit about why I

think this matters because I usually

agree with you I think you know

Westminster based stories process driven

stories can be really distracting and I

think as a political journalist we do as

a profession tend to focus on them too

much but I actually I had the report

here in full I wish she told me you

hadn't read it I could have given it to

you in the Green Room earlier but this

this bit was a bit that really stuck out

for me this attack on a committee

carrying out its remit from the

democratically elected house itself

amounts to an attack on our Democratic

institutions and I think that's kind of

important because we all need the

systems in Whitehall in Westminster by

which our politicians are held to

account to work and in a way this has

proved the system is working because

we've got the reports we've got an

outcome of it and we've got all of this

for all of us to see so we all know what

is the case now but to have someone

repeatedly traducing and attacking all

of those institutions I think it's

something we should care about because

it undermines people's confidence in the

checks and balances are there to keep us

all safe and were you surprised by quite

how damning the report was I was to be

honest I mean that sentence is quite

remarkable that's a former prime

minister of our country I think was he

the Prime Minister this time last year

pretty much and then you've got him

being accused of basically attacking our

Democratic institutions it says that in

black and white here that is remarkable

I've never seen anything like that I

know I'm slightly younger than the rest

of the panel if I tell anyone on this

panel seen anything like that really and

the committee has talked about it being

unprecedented certainly let's hear a bit

more because there's so many hands up

yes the man there with the sunglasses

tucked in your shirt there sorry David

you've just said that you support

Richard hang on there's three David's

here

just for ease of comprehension it's not

me you've just said you support Rishi

and Rishi wants to bring Integrity back

to the heart of government so surely you

and Richie and everybody else got no

choice love all those Boris but to vote

to support the report on Monday well

I've already said to you that I will I

support the work the committee's done um

I can't be more clear than that there's

a 90-page report there and I've been

visiting various businesses and things

in North Wales today but I'll go

straight over the weekend and I can

assure you um I take the uh the report

very seriously in the work that's been

done very seriously and I don't attack

an idea at all the woman here in the

front

um isn't Rishi compliant in this he held

office at the same time as Boris Johnson

surely he was involved in some way he

was also issued with a fixed penalty in

assume I'll get around there and I'm

going to come back to you otherwise it

no one has to get away so you know he

certainly wasn't involved in it but he

was served with a fixed penaltyness

because he turned up 10 minutes early

for a meeting in a place okay but that

was the decision of the police yes I

mean I thought it was quite interesting

what gito said about depriving Boris

Johnson of his livelihood I mean let's

not forget this is a guy who has voted

three times in the House of Commons

since he left office and earned five

million pounds I think Boris Johnson it

probably isn't when they go hungry as a

result of leaving Parliament the reality

is that the conservative party entered

in agreement with Boris Johnson the new

fine will the guy was a gambler the guy

was somebody who took risks he was

always a bit creative for the truth and

the reality is the chickens have come

home to roost and we've now get this

unkempt man child who has finally been

chopped out of Parliament and I don't

think deserves to return but I would go

further than that I think that the 245

000 pounds of your money that was spent

on legal costs should be equipped from

Boris Johnson I think that the owner's

list

this is an owner's list he wanted to

give his father a Knighthood I think his

owner's list should be scrapped and I

think the 115 000 pounds a year that

he's due to get for the rest of his life

as a former prime minister should also

be waved as well and we should all move

on from this sorry Saga and focus on the

things that matter the cost of living

crisis the NHS and everything that

matters to people in this room I mean

David and Linden since we've got you

here this is obviously a fairly Torrid

time for the government

it's not the easiest time for the s p

recently you're talking about chickens

coming home to resources Nicholas

Sturgill was arrested

and questioned by police released

without charge but you now have the

three most senior people at the top of

the s p arrested and questioned by

people that process has been ongoing for

two years now there's been three arrests

and no charges and I think it's

absolutely right that we are transparent

and we go through with that process but

you can't hide it I mean there's a big

tent in the front door there's also the

1981 contempt of court act which I'm

sure you wouldn't want me to breach on

your program because unlike Boris

Johnson I respect the rule of law and

I'm not going to go and reach contempt

of court I'm not asking you to I'm

simply saying you're talking about

chickens coming home to roost this is

not the easiest time for the SNP either

and the SNP is getting on with the day

job that's why he comes the use of his

first Minister has tripled that fuel and

Security fund the biggest issue that

faces folk at the moment is the cost of

living crisis and we're getting on with

that job I think they decided to send

their flowers didn't they that was uh

who decided sorry I said Pay leadership

they have something inside the flowers

is it Like An Egyptian I mean I forgot

to say anything I know the same things

people let's send you know I request the

Tony Blair to appear before the

international work times Tribunal for

invading Iraq the government yourself

done right I'm going to get a few more

points before I move on yes there's a

one right in the middle and a green and

black shirt there yes

I just want to ask the gentleman on the

end sorry gitter who used to work for

the prime minister former prime minister

two questions how does Boris feel

cheated

how does he Feel Jesus he knows the

process and now he feels cheated it's

time he takes responsibility for himself

like the gentleman said we move on and

stop wasting money on this man

so the police who are skilled qualified

experienced know the law know the

process investigated the allegations at

the heart of this they concluded that

Boris Johnson was in technical breach of

lockdown regulations on one occasion in

the cabinet room where the cabinet meets

at two o'clock in the afternoon ahead of

a meeting that a t-total chancellor

was also at and they gave him a 50 Quid

fine that's what the police decided was

the scale of the crime the nature of the

transgression on this occasion he paid

that 50 Quid fine from that we went to

an inquiry that attributed to him and

his leadership the bad behavior the

whole load of grown-up clever adults

with moral agency with the ability to

decide for themselves whether to drink

whether to do whatever else was in Sue

Gray's report none of them had been

mentioned none of them have been hounded

out of office Boris Johnson has been

pinned for the transgressions of all

those people and though he's not t total

like Rishi sunak I bet it'll surprise

most of you that he barely drinks you'd

be surprised about a lot of things about

him but his own party because of the

hysteria that would simply not go away

about partygate and people would not

allow him to talk about all the other

things the mattered so much more last

year not least his courageous and

principal leadership on the Ukraine they

drowned all of that out in a hysterical

myopic

obsession with party Gates Okay so

or something of course something got one

fixed penalty notice

Downing Street itself as you say all

these other smart people they were fined

this is the most fine household in the

entire country congratulations to them

for the gold medal and Boris Johnson is

pictured with some of those people who

have drinks in their hands he told the

House of Commons that he believed that

all guidance was followed at all times

there are photos of him in which that is

not the case this is not about whether

you had a party this is about whether he

misled the House of Commons and this is

it's there

ghetto let me finally ask is we're going

to move on because as you rightly

pointed out there are things that are

affecting people's daily lives

quite a lot more than this and there are

other questions I want to come to

finally do you agree with select

committee that Boris Johnson lied to the

house I don't see get into someone's

head I don't say principle so you don't

agree with that the the accusation was

misled answer yes he corrected the

record as Minister misled deliberately

which is another way I don't know how

they can say that he deliberately I

don't know how you could contribute

motive to people and get inside their

heads and decide that it didn't matter

to the police why should it matter to

the former leader of the labor party who

presided over this over this process

shall we move on yes please to another

subject before we do I'm just going to

tell you about next week's program so

next week is the

talk about devices subjects next week is

the seventh anniversary of the brexit

vote and you may or may not heard that

we are devoting the show to a

conversation about how Britain now looks

outside the EU seven years on so our

audience unusually is going to be a

cross-section of people who took that

decision back in 2016 that is leave

voters some will have changed their

minds some not some may be uncertain and

that's what we're going to explore we'll

be in clactanon Sea on the Essex Coast

we'll have the regular Question Time

panel government if we're in England so

it'll be government labor will have a

prominent leave supporter and a

prominent remain supporter as it happens

it will be Alistair Campbell next week

so if you voted for brexit and you live

in clacton on sea or around the area

we'd love to hear from you come and be a

part of our audience the address to

follow is here okay

I heard what you said with your pink

hair so let's come to this next question

which is from Sarah Walker hi

um is there anything that the government

could or should do to help those coming

to the end of their fixed rate mortgage

deals and facing huge payment increases

is anything the government should or

could do to help those come into the end

of their fixed rate mortgage deals and

facing huge payment increases David B

let's kick off with you well the first

thing they could do is to stop

encouraging the bank of England to take

sole responsibility for inflation and

thereby put up interest rates still

further the average mortgage for those

who and it'll be two and a half million

people families over the over the next

18 months the average rate now is 5.9

percent it's of course labor that gave

the bank of England oh it was indeed it

was indeed but we never believed that

the sole Golf Club in dealing with the

economy and with inflation was the bank

of England putting interest rates up in

fact we had the lowest interest rates in

our history uh until uh about six years

ago and of course we couldn't stay at

those historic low interest rates it was

impossible to do so but I just want to

put it to you that we've got ourselves

in almost like an algorithm so we we

claim in order to be able to pull down

inflation we put interest rates up to

slow the economy and we get to a point

where it's agreed that if we carry on

like this we'll be in recession and when

we're in recession people have lost

their jobs are unable to spend and

because they've shaken out the labor

market uh people will be paid less then

inflation comes down that's the theory

at least from about half The Economist

because the other half don't agree but

what do you think should happen well I I

think firstly the bank of England are

going to put interest rates up next week

they should make it absolutely clear

that this is the last in increase for at

least six months they should stop being

pushed by the market so the minute you

put interest rates up that's pocketed

it's taken into account and then they

say what about the next time you meet

aren't you going to put it up again

we're on a terrible algorithmic

almost a Helter Skelter here where every

time they do something it actually has

the perverse outcome interest rates

don't affect food prices they don't

affect Energy prices they don't account

for the fact that the US are down to

four percent inflation France six

percent and Germany 6.3 percent they're

all way below us and if the government

wanted to they could mobilize the

competition and markets Authority it has

been done slightly on fuel prices

they're due to report in July where

frankly people were ripped off it I I

sincerely believe that there was

profiteering in that area and they could

take Joint action with the CMA with the

markets Authority with the bank of

England and altogether a package of

measures that would stop us on this

cycle that's the only way you're going

to stop people being absolutely

crucified by further interest rates okay

um

TC it does feel strangely informal

calling you TC but anyway

that's what you've agreed

um there was talk of of the government

agreeing a voluntary price cap with

supermarkets food retailers that was

only last week I think is is that still

going ahead

um there was a discussion about that but

the original question was if I made just

about the bank of England I only

mentioned because because David let's

talk about cost of England because

because little blunt had actually made

the point that there is a direct link

between inflation uh and between

interest rates and interest rates are

the tool which the bank of England used

to control uh or to control inflation

but we are determined to get bring

inflation down by bringing inflation

down interest rates can fall as well and

that's why it's so important do you

think the bank of England is right to

take the measures well the bank of

England are targeting inflation and as

David blanket has just said that is that

is how it's done but we can we can take

out uh certain pressures on inflation so

for example we respect greatly the work

of the public sector doctors nurses and

so on but but agreeing to pay Rises of

35 or even 50 percent would create

further inflation borrowing excess money

will create further inflation that the

IMF have said that Labor's plan to

borrow 28 billion pounds a year will

have an impact on inflation and on

interest rates so there isn't an easy

answer to it but what we do have to do

is to continue with continue with the

policies at the moment which are working

which have brought inflation down from

over 10 percent to 8.7 percent now and

it's going in the right way more slowly

than the government had anticipated yes

but we're doing it we it is going in the

right direction and what the IMF has

also said is that and they said this

themselves not us if labor go out go

ahead with this plan to borrow 28

billion pounds a year then it's going to

make inflation and mortgage interest

rates worse and if people care about the

cost of living they should be looking at

things like you less I mean here in

Wales the world emissions yes we'll say

the government are trying to do what

London is doing and bringing in all

sorts of charge they're trying to ban

meal deals they're making it more

expensive in so many ways for

given that we're in the depot of a food

retailer the the government's suggestion

I think it was only last week that that

a voluntary price cap would be

introduced among supermarkets and

through food retailers is that still

going ahead I know that the uh the

different Minister has had conversations

about that but she's talked about a

voluntary price cap because it's being

briefed today that it isn't going to go

ahead now if it happened it would be a

voluntary one wouldn't it I mean it's

not going to be a Magic Bullet to bring

down the costs of living because this is

the secretary of state by the way who

suggested we should eat turnips isn't it

well David with all due respect we've

got a Welsh labor government that's

trying to ban meal deals in Wales so

that's not doing much for the cost of

living either and we're bringing Road

users the UK government we're going to

do the deals and then they canceled it

yes should do the same thing now and

they should also rule out bringing in

Road user charges as well all right so

let's go back to the lady

subject you want to talk about let's see

what you've got to say France caps are a

very bad thing we've seen what happened

with the oil come with oil and the

energy companies with price caps what it

did was make energy more expensive we

lost a whole load of smaller companies

who were competitive and were competing

with each other to lower our prices so

that we would go to them and because of

the energy cap they all went out of

business Energy caps are a bad idea well

caps are a bad idea because it loses the

market they're not competitive they

don't try and get our custom and it it

means that they just earn more money all

right the woman here

hi

um we're talking about the interest

rates on mortgages but what you're

forgetting is food inflation's got up

now to 19.1

wage increases are averaging at 7.4 the

governor of the bank of England as you

keep stating came on and scare mongered

the other day stating that it's got up

to 7.4 we estimated it's going to be at

three percent we're going to have

interest rate increases for the next two

years he's now estimated it's going to

be at eight percent I took on a big

mortgage last year because I've got a

disabled partner and I'm disabled myself

and I have a business as well and I

might have to look at releasing staff

because I can't afford these interest

rates

with food with energy with everything

and the government are doing nothing

what would you like the government to do

what would that I'd like them to put

caps on but what I'd also like to do is

on what on on interesting but also work

with people like Iceland are the ones

like that to work on initiatives rather

than lock and say well we've got this

look at South Africa they've got an

energy issue where they have to turn

electricity off you need to start

investing in places and make grit and

break great again rather than looking

abroad for Solutions invest in the

skills

and invest in the people of the UK and

start building here rather than looking

for Solutions elsewhere Debbie Linda I

think the first thing to acknowledge and

see this question is that for quite a

lot of people now in these islands home

ownership there's a pipe dream it's

something that's incredibly Outreach for

them particularly for a lot of younger

people

um and yes there are things that I think

the government could be doing to support

people who've been speaking an awful lot

about for example price caps look at

France for example where they've got

blocks and certain items of foods we're

in a ridiculous situation where people

are going to supermarkets in butter is

price tagged

baby formula is behind the counter now

that was not that we were promised

during the brexit campaign River

promised that food would be cheaper but

as we have this conversation about

mortgage rates and you know I myself

come off of a fixed rate in October and

I can only tell you how painful it's

been when that's gone up but let's not

forget what happened in the Autumn the

UK government crashed the economy we are

paying a premium on our mortgages

because of the economic experiment of

lidstross and quasiquarting and so I

think it's for that reason that it's

incumbent upon the UK government to come

forward and offer support and clean up

the mess that they've made

okay

t-shirt

well the simple fact of the matter is

that people who are mostly affected by

this this punitive measures like

green deals and things that causing

people that maybe can only afford a 13

year old car

to have to pay to enter cities or leave

the place where they live it costs them

more to go to work and these are the

people that are fighting for pay Rises

these are also the people in the next

two to three years who are potentially

going to become homeless because they

can't afford a three four hundred pound

rise on their already expensive mortgage

that they already can't afford which is

getting even closer now because that's

60 pounds a month has just gone away

that they were getting towards their

energy bills

when's it going to give because the

simple fact of matter is there's support

at the bottom there's Comfort at the top

and the people in the middle

get nothing

and the woman just a bit further forward

in the pink colorful pink top yes you

yeah I've I've had a mortgage in in the

late late 80s and 90s and I was there

when it was 16 so I know the pain

everybody's feeling and I always said to

myself I was going to spend my life

getting all my bills paid down so I

could get a life of comfort and retire

and not have to worry about things so

fortunately I have paid my mortgage down

and I'm not in that situation but I feel

for people because what I'm saying is

that the anger and the frustration I

feel tonight is you know we've opened

the show talking about Boris Boris is

sucking is sucking the life out of

things it's given the the conservative

party and constant sort of look at this

over here while we're all dying over

here from starvation not being able to

actually feed ourselves not being able

to put our heating on over this over the

winter we're in summer so that the

temperature's gone off that now people

have used the savings some of us didn't

get any any help in in covert lockdown

we were you you know three million

people self-employed didn't get any help

their savings have already gone they've

spent it all on sale on on heating

they've spent it all on extra food now

you're hitting them with mortgages

what's going to give before you have

thousands and thousands and thousands of

people losing their homes you you're

making people 55 year olds wanting to go

back to work like me there's no

incentive for me to go back to work my

my pension is paid I can't put any more

into it you want to tax me and use my

National Insurance to pay for what

there's no Center for me to go back to

work other than the fact you need us to

go back to work because you need to keep

paying everybody else

because you've you've just absolutely

screwed up the economy

there's going to be so many people

I'm about to lose the homes and you're

sat there making excuses and blaming

everybody else I'll come back to you

I'll get around the wrist panel

Charlotte

sort of fascinating listening to you

because like when we had the first

question I thought yes we should do

something about mortgages and then every

person who's spoken since has talked

about something else and then I thought

yes we should do something about food

and then I thought yes we should do

something about renting and yes we

should do something and

obviously we can't do everything right

there is a limited amount of money in

the state so I think the conclusion I've

sort of come from listening to everyone

is that probably if if I was in charge

which thank heavens I am not and this is

their problem I think I'd probably be

looking at the safety net to be honest

right at the bottom Universal credits

something like that that's probably what

lever I'd pull and I do appreciate what

you said about nothing for people in the

middle but so many things are wrong at

the moment my instinct is we're

basically I'm hoping for the government

to try and do the bare minimum

I think we need a lot more honesty in

public life I'm I find this no I really

do I love it I just love it that's great

growing up honesty not about past why do

you think people are laughing at that

no but let's not go back to boys because

that's what we're trying to say last

year when the obsession was with

partygate he was trying to work out not

only how to save help people with their

bills last year 37 billion pound package

that's a lot of money last summer to

cushion the pain but he was thinking how

do we avoid being in the same situation

at the end of the decade with another

cost of living crisis and that is

looking Beyond tomorrow Beyond next week

Beyond the next election to we need more

nuclear power stations we need more

offshore wind we need to take the

decisions now that make those things

happen so that we're not at the end of

the decade like a madman reliving a

problem that we've had now and so the

only way we can really address this is

to grow the economy and to take the

burdens off those people who are growing

the economy and one key fact that nobody

mentions nobody's going to stick up for

that wild sort of four weeks when you

know there were two people in charge of

the economy because

yeah

when I say let's be honest but

100 billion pounds paying people to stay

at home being economically inactive

during the lockdown they did it for

Noble reasons to save lives to stop

people dying but we can't pretend that

400 billion pounds is not an awful lot

of money that now means there isn't

money to do all the other Noble things

there should be how much of that money

so if we can be honest about that not

just about whether somebody said this

[Applause]

there's 400 billion pounds most of it

went to people who had to close their

business who had to stop going to work

who had to shut down their restaurant

and the reasons for that were Noble at

the time but let's be honest if you

really want honesty in public life let's

be honest that money doesn't grow on

trees and 400 billion pounds is a lot of

money and that's why we're in trouble

now not because even less trust can lose

as 400 billion pounds okay your chance

okay we put together uh on top of that

400 billion there was 94 billion pounds

that was put together for cost of living

support and that helped to pay for half

of people's fuel bills over the winter

so we're really aware of the of the

points that you raised but the lady

there talked about investment in the

United Kingdom I agree with you we were

able to raise that money through through

taxing oil and gas companies in the UK

75 and I hope that the SMP and and Lord

blunkard are going to tell us why they

want to shut those Industries down well

they want to stop any more oil and gas

just trying to being pulled out of the

North Sea which is going to destroy 200

000 British jobs and force us to spend

even more money bringing in oil and gas

from abroad whilst throwing people out

of work what is that going to do and

what's not the woman there who said

you're or you're sitting here just

making excuses you said no I'm not okay

because because of what that lady said

and what you said Madam you're

absolutely right there is a real problem

with cost of living at the moment we're

not hiding from it at all I totally

recognize it but what but get them at a

point when we spend 400 billion pounds

in the way that we did we know we know

from what happened a year ago that if

you borrow money then there is an impact

there's an impact on eventually on

inflation and mortgage interest rates if

you tax people more in order to to give

money back to other people that has an

impact on some people's living standards

so there are no easy answers we cannot

magic the money out from nowhere and

we're doing the very best that we can

and that's why I'm very proud that the

government made it a priority to make

sure the pensions and benefits and that

the minimum wage all went up in line

with inflation and that there were

additional payments to the most needed

900 pounds so that households on

benefits 300 pounds for pensions 150 000

disability has it reached everyone no it

hasn't but we're doing absolutely our

very best because we recognize the

problems which you've uh which you've

raised let's spend

yes what about the middle Group Well the

gentleman made the point about you Les

but I've already made that point so I

completely agree with you it's

absolutely ridiculous that we that that

we've got a labor Council in London

labor government in Wales that want to

bring in extra charges on people just

for driving to work people who can't

afford the top of the range electric

cars and I totally condemn that and

wouldn't want to see that happening

quite a few hands I can spend a little

bit longer on this before I move on to

another question the man there in the

black T-shirt the lady mentioned about

Universal Credit you can't trust

Universal Credit or pip my brother is

sincerely disabled he actually needs pip

and they just for those who don't know

what pip is

yeah

so my brother is really disabled he

can't go back to work my mum's now got

to go to court who I'm with today she's

gotta go to court with my brother to get

his pit back

so you can't trust it okay and the man

over there in the blue shirt

um it's a known fact that in the UK

we've got some of the worst insulated

properties in um in Europe

um wasting lots of energy and you know

we're having to

um help people out because they can't

afford to pay their energy bills

um I think we should be doing much much

more to insulate properties I mean the

more we we do that the more we're going

to save the less power we're going to

have to generate and you know be more

self-sufficient but I think this is a

no-brainer it's a no-brainer to start no

matter in the in the white T-shirt there

no further back yes if you keep your

hand up we can find you there you go

is reduced and the numbers are about is

a complete liar

and I'll tell you that now because he

put a tweet up the other day saying that

it's reduced to numbers of boats last

weekend was the biggest rise of the

small boats coming across and my next

question is how much are you are the

conservative government wasting to

transition the X Mod comes to to

migration centers

of taxpayers money what you're going to

be wasting well

there's two issues that first of all the

the numbers overall have been going down

this year and there have been thousands

of people stopped from coming over from

France I agree with you you're right to

hold us to account on this because it is

very important we tackle it secondly we

were spending millions of pounds every

day on housing people who'd come here

illegally in hotels that is unacceptable

and and it's much better that the people

are housed in in more basic

accommodation because we have to take

away the incentive that makes people

want to come here in the first place and

again we're sitting here in Wales we

have a Welsh labor government that is

now paying a 20 000 pound salary a

universal basic income to underage

Asylum seekers in certain local

Authority areas which they see as a

pilot which they want to extend and

which is going to be a magnet which will

encourage even more people to risk their

lives and come into this country

illegally I I'm perfectly supportive of

safe and legal migration to people who

come over to this country legally but

what I would not do is to encourage

people to come over here buy small boats

because it will end in tragedy and it

ends in people being exploited and it's

also unfair on the people who live in

this country okay

if you don't mind I'm just going to take

another question from Catherine Parnell

Catherine Parnell where are you oh great

let's hear from you our Victorian

abortion laws still appropriate in 2023

right so Catherine you're raising this

because uh I'm sure most of not all of

you are aware that a mother of three has

been jailed for 28 months for inducing

an abortion after the legal limit the

legal limit being 24 weeks and she was

considerably further on than that and

she is now going to serve time in

custody

Charlotte

um yeah I saw obviously the same news

story that you saw

um and I really didn't like it I think

obviously what we saw there was someone

who broke the rules someone who did have

an extremely late term abortion probably

to be honest quite a traumatic medical

event given what happened there for this

woman herself it's not like she's going

to be coming back and repeat offending

every year that is not something that

people are doing repeatedly for fun

let's be honest and the fact that she

has end up in prison for this whether or

not you think she did the right or wrong

thing I think helps absolutely no one it

doesn't help her it certainly doesn't

help her three children who have lost

their mum for a few years I don't feel

happier or safer or I don't think any

woman in the country feels happier or

safer for it and I don't think it

protects children in any way shape or

form I'm yeah I wonder what do you think

there should have been any sanctions I I

think she did break the law as it exists

but a custodial sentence sending someone

to jail for that for me just seems to

benefit absolutely no one it also

doesn't feel particularly like justice

for me what I will say and I always

worry when we talk about abortion is I

think we often as a country act like

we're Little America and we sort of

imports America's fights and obviously

America have a much bigger fight on

their hands when it comes to abortion

rights than we do and I sometimes worry

that by importing that fight a bit we

almost open it up as more of a

discussion than it has to be this is a

settled debate in this country people if

you pull them believe in the right to

abortion and sometimes I worry that by

sort of hyping it up into an

Americanized style we almost open up and

say go on let's talk about it let's talk

about whether abortion is okay or not

when we all know it is okay

well the question I think why the reason

to ask questions because the woman has

gone to prison

um she has but under you know we we all

have this subtle agreement that the laws

as they exist broadly work the custodial

sentence I don't think is necessarily

part of that David Linden do you think

that Victor I mean it's a law from what

1861 offended against the person now do

you think we should be scrapping that

look I understand that for a lot of

people this is a really sensitive topic

but I cannot get away from the fact that

a mother who has three children has been

put in prison as a result of this and I

think we should be mindful of fact this

is probably a really difficult thing for

everybody involved but the idea that we

would use prisons which I think most of

us would accept is to rehabilitate

people and also to make sure that the

rest of society is safe the idea that we

would use prison to put that woman in

there the private of our time with the

three children I just think is a

tremendous waste of the judicial system

that's already under a huge amount of

pressure and my thoughts are very much

for those three children who have lost

their mom do you think it should be it

should be decriminalized in North than

Ireland is a different system and in all

land the the woman would not be

penalized it would be the the medical

professional who had administered the

substance or or the retailer I mean the

fact that this legislation dates back to

1860 I think tells you yourself that

this is something that has deeply viewed

it's got to be reviewed by senior

ministers because we cannot have a

situation where a woman goes to prison

for several years and leaves behind her

three children as a result of

legislation that is 2 300 years old the

one with the blonde hair and you've got

your glasses in your hair yes

um yeah I completely agree with both of

you and I'm quite pleased that you

brought up the American issue as well

um because I think this sets a really

dangerous precedent in light of what is

going on in America with their really

strict abortion restrictions and as the

the medical community wrote to the

um judge on this trial they advised

against a custodial sentence because it

will dissuade people from accessing this

very vital Healthcare and regardless of

what you think about term limits on

abortions I completely agree there's no

benefit to anyone for this lady going to

a custodial center it's certainly not a

benefit to her existing children and

yeah I just think as a woman it's it's a

very scary time okay

hi I just um I think it's ridiculous

that this ladies received such a long

sentence when pedophiles receive much

less

okay

um

well I don't disagree with much of that

I don't feel happier or safer by the

fact This Woman's gone to prison

interestingly we are all now uh you know

discussing a legal a quasi-legal

decision and and by doing that we're not

in any way I don't think threatening the

courts or the law or anything but it is

slightly contradictory to what we were

doing 20 minutes ago when we were told

that under no circumstances should

anyone be querying the committee but

let's leave that to once you said that

you were not quite I'm not I'm not but

every lots of other people were bringing

that up so I respect you process so we

have to respect what the judge has done

I don't think the law should be changed

I I would look at it I mean personally I

voted um for buffer zones outside

abortion clinics because I don't think

it's right that women who are exercising

their legal right to abortion should be

frankly intimidated by people who may

say that they are peacefully protesting

but they're not what they're doing is in

my view intimidation of very vulnerable

people and I think that all of the women

who

foreign did I actually think that 24

weeks is too high so I'm probably not

making friends with anyone I think it's

actually not that contradictory to think

that any woman who finds themselves in

that situation is a victim and should

not be stigmatized but to be able to

raise concerns about the about the

24-week limit and I hope what do you

think that people are sick well I I tell

you what I think we should have a proper

discussion with medical professionals

not people outside abortion clinics

leading it I also agree with that the

the point the lady made in yourself Dave

and I think Charlotte that we do not

want to turn this into a sort of U.S

style debate where you're either on one

side of the argument or on another side

there there should be a reasonable

pragmatic way of dealing with this in a

grown-up fashion and and the women who

find themselves in that situation

deserve this subject to be debated in in

a reasonable way so that's my that's my

opinion just out of interest if you

think 24-week limit is two I'm not going

to get drawn on this but you must have a

view on what you think it should well I

would listen with a note in mind but I

think I've shown my mindedness by being

quite happy to vote with labor and peace

but buffers zones outside abortion

clinics because I don't think any woman

who exercised their legal right to

aborted in any way

let's just the man here in in the middle

in the white shirt hang on just start

again we couldn't hear you oh it's not

anyone going to speak up for The Unborn

Child though if it was near eight months

when peripherality babies can be born at

six and seven months and eight months

not one person spoke about the child

so and do you think it was it's right

this year if there's a week's limit

there is a week's limit that's the law

what about the child perfectly healthy

children are born at seven months and

eight months

the law was clearly broken there's no

doubt about it it is death and that's

the law if that's the law That's the Law

mature maturing white men are not always

the best people to make judgments on

this

um

but but you've given that hang on he

just wants to come back

what is my color got to do with the

device I I was talking about it

I was talking about myself I'm the

maturing white male and I'm very

different I took part in the embryology

Bill debate 30 years ago it was

difficult then and it's really difficult

now and the thing I fully agree with is

that we mustn't americanize this really

sensitive debate it isn't for or against

it's getting it right we've got three

conjunctions here of the uh the

termination pill the 10-week per pill

which was allowed to be prescribed

without consultation without

face-to-face consultation during covet

and has now been codified so that's

available we've got the 1861 act the

overriding of the situation in Northern

Ireland back in 2019 because of the

failure of the Northern Ireland uh

Devolution to be able to to deal with

the issue and the anomalies we've got to

actually try and sort all those things

out without falling into the Trap of

saying that termination of of the the

level that you've just spoken about

eight months on is acceptable because it

is not it can only be a are acceptable

if it saves the life of the mother and

what came out of it for me was the lack

of support the fear the worry of that

woman and we had a an interchange in the

Lords this morning we do try and do some

good when it was very clear that this it

will go to appeal that there's something

called The Royal prerogative that it is

possible that this will be overturned

and a community sentence would have been

and will I in my view be most

appropriate but let's not get it mixed

up with the the the right to choose is

enabled I accept it that the woman's

right to choose but not to choose to

have an abortion at 32 weeks it is just

not acceptable okay let's look at the

woman here

my son was born at 30 weeks that child

is certainly a viable child and like

that gentleman I do want to speak up for

that child I am pro-abortion

I was horrified by the story and I think

that the law is the law

and without the ability to

um

to judge her myself

I think that what happened was

possibly premeditated and that maybe the

law didn't go quite far enough

um but I agree that abortion

um should be a choice that is available

to women

and it's just like do you think it's

right that she has gone to prison

okay get him

I'm the father of twins who were born at

36 weeks so a little bit later so but I

feel desperately desperately sorry for a

woman who finds herself in that

predicament that she is 32 weeks

pregnant and the system has allowed her

to get to that point without helping her

so for me she's not there to be punished

because she is as much of a victim of a

system that did not help her early in

the process a mother of three now

deprived of access to their children I

mean it's beyond parody but also she she

would have not wanted to do that herself

that would have been the last thing she

wanted to do was to abort a child of 32

weeks so if she ended up doing that it

was because the system did not allow it

to do it earlier on and some of this may

be down to the unique messed up

situation of covid but going forwards

what I would sort of focus on this

system stopped her well you when people

couldn't see their GP and couldn't no

but she she became pregnant did she not

in September 2019.

is that not correct the the exactators

are quite it was it was December that

she found out so so I don't know the

exact reasons but the answer to this is

to make sure that a woman's right to

choose is one that is exercised with a

full support of the state at a practical

time at the earliest opportunities so

that nobody including this woman for

whom I have great empathy does not end

up with a trauma for her and the

breaking of the law and a signal to

society that 32 weeks is is is okay it's

not

look it's a it's a very sensitive topic

and people have different views and I

appreciate you all putting your hands up

and talking about about that and we we

will listen respectfully and I think

that's exactly what should happen could

I just make one very clear yeah it's a

very small point but for the audience

who don't know me I I wasn't making a

point earlier about the man's color how

could I I can't see you yeah

[Applause]

okay

is it for this week remember available

as a podcast on BBC sounds next week we

will be in collecting on C that should

be a pretty interesting program make

sure you tune in or applying to be in

the audience from question time here in

decide until next week bye

thank you

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