The Business Of Football | The Anfield Wrap

[Music]

it is the anfield wrap it's a bit of a

state of play-ish anfield rap in a sense

both in terms of what liverpool are

doing and what liverpool are up to but

also sort of looking at two of our

rivals at the very least in the context

of that as well manchester city and

chelsea will park tottenham for now uh

firstly because they muddy my discussion

uh but secondly because i'm not quite

sure where they're up to obviously we

exist in the european framework as well

but we'll park that for the foreseeable

future uh speaking of existing in other

frameworks we've got a london live show

coming up a london live show coming up

on july the 9th in earth in hackney if

you are around please do come take it up

widely available right now uh bring

everybody you've ever met if you would

like it'll be a fantastic saturday night

i am genuinely really looking forward to

it uh it will be a little bit different

and just be really clear our live shows

are most definitely not podcasts we will

not record it john people will never

know that happens they'll never know

what what went on unless they were there

no exactly if they're very different to

what this monday show

is gonna be it's a celebration liverpool

football club it's a celebration of the

team it's all about getting together

enjoying ourselves and and especially

when they're on a saturday nights i feel

like me and you take it up another level

neil whether anyone likes it or not

whether anyone likes it or not isn't he

going to be uh quite you are involved uh

yes uh the audience that has a lot of

audience participation also download the

app uh to get all of our content that is

widely available so hackney earth and

then download the app and we will go

from there uh rob goodman is clearing up

t already speaking i forgot it's been

filmed i know i know if i feel like that

yeah she had to bring the the video back

to reality yeah the video audience to do

on this uh it happens that's all it does

especially to people like you and i yes

you spill things for a living

professional spillers spillers uh yeah i

was i was very supportive when you

spilled did you know you were very very

caring very intensive okay so this is

gonna be a bit broad um and it's about

firstly

lots of things as as it's gone on rob

across the last few days have sort of

been in my head and they've sort of

collapsed

around liverpool's business around where

we find ourselves around how it changes

but not just liverpool's business so

city for instance to contextualize this

city i've got sterling uh gundam um all

with one more year left on the deal

maras is in the same boat uh they've got

bernardo silva and gabrielle hughes

who's strongly linked away they've

already signed two attackers i would

point out in the same way we've signed

two attackers in this calendar year um

there's the news that's chelsea are

prepared to just loan lukaku back i

haven't paid 90 million for them last

summer put a 10 million loan fifa into

milan which just feels like you'd feel

as though somewhere

if you worked for chelsea something will

be sticking in your craw from uh have we

been stitched here sort of perspective

and yet that appears to just be

something that's just happening the

machismo of it is taken out of out of

our hands but i think as supporters and

i include myself in this this isn't uh

you know i think in lots of our minds

we're still stuck in this idea of of of

transfer fees of an old style way of

doing things of where value is and

that's what i want to talk about on this

show is

how has has that changed how has that

changed where liverpool been in the

changing of that and in amongst all of

this talk about our midfield options

going into next season liverpool's

behaviors so first and foremost we'll do

the lukaku thing so you can follow like

a wind-up toy and let me go no yeah well

yeah there is an element to that it is

weird isn't it the lukaku thing in that

the idea that you spend 90 minutes on a

player and then loaning back to the club

you spent 90 million from for 10 million

pounds plus add-ons over the course of a

season first and foremost is just barmy

as far as i'm concerned and yet that

doesn't mean it's not rational

well yeah i think it's easier to do it

because chelsea have been to a kind of

hell and back haven't they with the uh

the abramovich stuff you know they've

they've looked into a as a club as an

institution

they by the way i mean you know they're

wider they they've looked into an abyss

whereby everything that came before

almost

you could argue was verging on

irrelevant they were they were looking

into not existing as a football club

so i think they're able to tell

themselves the story and again the wider

they that this is reset time and you

just gonna and which makes certain

decisions easier and uh and the one

decision i think was become well one

thing aspect that became quite clear is

the roman lukaku was a bad fit for that

for that manager and the set of players

around him i mean i was always lukaku

skeptical i thought last time he was in

the premier league with man united apart

from a few flurries he was awful

um

the story had been painted that he had

this utter redemption and refining

himself in italy i don't know whether

where the truth exactly lies he's a good

footballer we saw him play well for

belgium in the euros so he's a good

footballer but i think

the level of romelu lukaku remains a bit

of a mystery but either however you

assess it he's not right for chelsea

right now and they're doing the right

thing getting rid if they got obviously

they'd like to into atlanta paid them

99.5 million pounds or something and

gone that'll do right and cut their

losses

um or not but

the loan works the loan gets he's not

saying he's a toxic personality but if

he stays there and he's not first pick

and he's in he's a frustrated hundred

million pound player on a bench that's a

bad circumstance for them of course you

could find some use from i said what was

the most it feels we went through this a

little bit ourselves with andy carroll

the twilight of andy carroll where it

was do we really have to use him you

know he's a bit you know he's got his

qualities we can see why he was worth

the money at the time but he is just a

bit [ __ ] for what we want and not what

we want so you do so you do cut your

loss so i think yes it's mad in the

wider scheme of of you know the the

football narrative but

but it's the right decision the the as

part of this so where this is linked

into the manchester city thing is

sterling strongly linked with a move to

chelsea

and the

i've always had the full blunderline uh

which was actually i didn't see phil

when he said it uh but rory has said it

to me a lot to ronnie smith john uh

because he likes the line as well the

start of last season rory said sorry

phil said liverpool have got the best

first 11 since you've got the best 18

and chelsea you've got the best 25. now

i think by the time we get to the end of

the season certainly from a purpose

point of view

i think the best 11's perhaps a bit of

an argument between us and city i think

the best 18 still is city and the best

25 is liverpool by the time we get to

the end of the season and part of that

is

the idea that footballers a couple of

them just didn't fit at chelsea and it

seems to me that part of the logic of

moving lukaku on if they do take this is

to create the room to then bring someone

like sterling who you feel as though

with the way in which they want to play

will be a better fit for what they're

trying to achieve i mean sterling's a

brilliant signing for them we can get

him over the line you know he's you know

he wants weighing in and that's that's

the issue and it's it's really

interesting that the city are in a

similar risk position to us uh with the

money thing is that you know you can't

you can't just weigh everyone in um like

the fans like the supporters sort of

want you to really like even city do

play the game a little bit more than

dumb people sort of you know think they

do it and make out they do when you've

only got 180

credits um

characters yeah and to sort of talk

about and so for the even for them and

there's also the you know the the

scenario you know you're thinking of

which is which is coming in more and

more way wages are funny like it's sort

of always been decided that you're

basically getting [ __ ] or when you're 18

no matter how good you know and then you

can phone still only on 12 a week yeah

and then your contracts just go is it

yeah

it has a new daily slowly on 12 grand a

week folding supposedly it's not a new

deal still yeah and the contracts get

better and better the older you get even

if your legs fall off

and your last contract's boss and and

everyone just cops forward it because

you've been underpaid at this time and

and now the money's just got to such a

level that more and more people like on

both sides by the way and funnily enough

sterling was that was the first person

who blew up the idea of

well just because i'm 19 why why are you

offering me [ __ ] money i'm one of our

best player one of liverpool's best

players which is what he was so he was

one of the first ones who him and his

agent were one of the first ones who

blew up the other side is that

everyone's like he's 19. he should

accept this and he's like but i'm better

than all these lads who are on 120 grand

a week and one of them is mario

balotelli and he's [ __ ] [ __ ] what are

you talking about but it's happening the

clubs are doing it the other side then

we're seeing that at liverpool and i

think there's a little bit of that with

with sterling at the moment is that know

this idea that your last contract's this

big payday and and makes up for the fact

that you've probably been underpaid a

little bit

i won't be surprised if we're going to

see more

clubs and players sort of accept that

the contracts are a bit more bell curved

and a little bit more sort of like well

if you know we understand that the

careers are going on a little bit longer

but while you're on your peak that will

be your pk earning and you sort of need

to accept that you know we're not we're

not all working in a bank when the 60

year olds are on around 80 grand a week

and i was quite sure why you know what i

mean this is [ __ ] serious though now

and so i think that's what liverpool are

trying to do and i think to a certain

extent it's what sort of city you're

trying to do with with some of these

players

as well and so but and i think that's

why the transfer fee is what it is i've

seen a lot of people surprised that you

know raheem sterling for 35 million but

i really like the swiss ramble thread

from last week um i've been touted that

lower fee yeah that's what they're

saying yeah um because because the wages

are so high and i really like the swiss

family from last week where he's the

first person who i've seen

talk about and not just talk about but

actually do the maths as well which

always really helps about how much a

football club spending on footballers

yeah let's look at it like that now

because honestly if i see another

comparison between the the transfer fees

of nunes and harlem they're going to

scream because first of all it doesn't

count the fact that [ __ ] everyone's

getting weighted harlan's nam's getting

weighed in yeah i'm getting 40 quid okay

it doesn't it doesn't it's not it's not

taking lives to go but also like you

know it was it wasn't it's not like back

in the day where you're like oh yeah

he's getting paid five grand a week more

than him it's a million pound a month

it's a million and that's everyone that

keeps going

and so and so you know what i mean you

can't you can't just sort of you know go

over you know he's he's 54 million he's

64. one and one other source of

liverpool and it's like it's his so he's

the first player to sort of explain that

but i think football clubs you know

they're they're sort of two free steps

ahead of don't like somebody aren't they

zero interviewers and so they've been

sort of looking at this for a while how

much are we spending on footballers what

value are we getting from that but also

with the lukaku thing

what space

can we create this year

that allows us to do that what we want

to do and then we'll worry about next

season then if we have to

i it's really confusing though if you

think in a certain sense with city

and arguably to degree with liverpool

you look you look at these two elite

sides who've liverpool on the edge of a

quadruple city bag in also their third

title in four years or fourth and fifth

i've looted them losing count now

and

city's case sterling bernardo silva

jesus are all relatively young aren't

they they're all sterling as be the

oldest of that group at 28 right

you know fabinho we gave him the big new

contract at 28 i think by the way and

andy robertson so we considered 28 quite

young

so and these these footballers are still

performing at a higher level for city

arguing bernardo silva was arguably

city's best player last season you know

but the difference with silva though is

the banana silvers i think he wants to

go he wants to go last summer and that's

one of the key differences sure that

well that's true but the interesting

thing is but all sterling and jesus and

silva and mahrez were talked about as

possible levers last summer especially

around the talk that the likes of kane

could have been brought in

um

but it does make me sort of wonder

and also looking at liverpool in

parallel whether the two ju the two

um megaliths of of the premier league

liverpool and um and manchester city

don't fancy a bit of a freshen up you

know they think there's only so long you

can mentally make these

these core of footballers because

there's quite a there's quite a

sort of continuity of the cast of this

of this rivalry between liverpool and

city now it's quite a few numbers who've

been together fighting these battles who

i don't know whether the man the

respective managers pep and

jurgen are thinking this is just gonna

end up being too mentally weary as well

as physically we just sometimes change

for its own sake might be needed i

wonder if that's what pep's thinking

because these are

the relatively young footballers in his

case who are assets and i know you can

look at each individual case i think i

don't

i'm probably overthinking this and

it's probably more it's possibly more

just the financial thing and they're

going well you know raheem wants

he wants the same wage he wants a bigger

wage he wants his last big pay packing

and city are are just getting realistic

but i don't i if i were city i would not

want raheem sterling going to chelsea i

mean you don't need one thing i think in

a sense liverpool need more rivals in

this league they need more quality in

this league so it's not just us and city

i think we've got a better chance of

winning the title if there's more good

teams in this league i think city

although they don't like liverpool jason

they certainly don't want other good

teams in this league um i mean that's

what that's why i thought we could

despite putting together an incredible

run in the last third of the season

ultimately we couldn't overhaul city

because there just weren't enough games

left for them against teams we could

take points off them that was the

problem um you know it'd be nice if if

chelsea and tottenham are both being

that 15-20 percent better time to beat

them home in a way well yeah i suppose

yeah actually that's maybe something

okay sorry i don't mean that maybe

nicely being another chelsea in

tottenham in this league you know uh

just on sterling be 28 in december so

any any moves

he's 27 now he's 28 in december um just

on on phone and by the way you might

have a highly incentivized contract but

the basic of the last contract he signed

in 2018 was 12 grand a week i'm trying

to get to the bottom of it but genuinely

that's that's still where yeah where he

is

around that i'm sure there'll have been

certain markers that have been hit in

the meantime but he hasn't signed a new

deal and one was much more to the

different phases jordan last season but

supposedly harlan's coming in has made

forward and go hang on you only want to

give you you want to give me 150 grand a

week but you're giving this fellow this

much and that conversation has been

happening incentive's another thing that

people are supposed to ignore and i've

said a lot about my saying i was only

100 grand a week i reckon there's one

week in the last four years where samara

is at the hundred grand yeah during the

week

well there's 150 as well that contract

you stand at the extension yeah in 2018

that was over so yeah it's not even

that's not even true yeah yeah

but what i can gather is that the year

we won the champions league and then the

the year after we won the premier league

everyone but especially the forwards got

[ __ ] waiting

just on that just as i sent a piece to

rob and i think this is an important

thing so this before the last contract

for me no signed in 2018 drum of the

game you will remember because we were

in oslo when liverpool went to

southampton and won 2-0 yeah uh in that

game off the back of his incentives

there was a piece in the daily mirror

that we found uh feminist basic was 67

grand but because of what happened in

that match he got 180 000 pounds yeah

and that was that's about 67 grand he

got 180 grand off the top he scored he

scored and got an assist he was on a 35

grand a week assist bonus i'm sure he

was and then within that the the goal

toppled him into a category where he

scored that many goals in the season in

the league in the champions league so

the goal counted for this much and all

of that sort of thing had a good day

well yes exactly

and that's that's where all that ends up

and that is that is a complexity within

this but the same thing is happening i

think it's more pronounced within

liverpool but the same thing's happening

with city and the same thing's happening

with chelsea i don't think i don't think

we're unique in this i just think our

version of it is is significantly more

pronounced around individual and team

bonuses but theirs is still present if

you know what i mean that's what i said

there by phone it wouldn't surprise me

if phones is in there

so in amongst all of this rob

liverpool's midfield options have come

under scrutiny because

something will always be under scrutiny

they've added two forwards in the last

god knows how long they've got four

quality centre-backs uh they've added a

young right back and i don't think he's

gonna play very much i know you and i

differ on this view but he's dead he's

there over there about we'll come on to

talk about uh calvin ramsey uh this

season later on

but the midfield's come under a degree

of scrutiny um off the back of this what

we can say with the level of certainty

is liverpool have bid for sure many they

were seriously in for sure many yeah

they haven't got too many he's gone to

real madrid instead and now as of

yesterday reports are that they

definitely want to keep alex

oxlade-chamberlain and i think that's

difficult for people

who can probably make an argument that

is let's say schuemann is the best

version of sure many that liverpool

thought he could possibly be and

everyone can have their own view of alex

oxlade-chamberlain and people would

argue there's a lot of center

midfielders in that gap now whether the

right or wrong people would argue

there's a lot of sentiment fielders in

that gap but we've seen over and over

rob that liverpool this liverpool set up

is consistently prepared to wait it's

what they do and that's what i think is

different to other setups elsewhere and

certainly other liverpools in the past

they they appear to have a really so and

that seems to me to be the reason why

they're now saying they want

oxlade-chamberlain to stay even though

he's only got 12 months on his contract

and you will presume there's not going

to be a renewal

well

the liverpool

the liverpool recruitment uh

set up that you know that's been in

place uh under edwards and now julian

ward for all for all the last for the

last few years has valued leverage

hugely being strong in all manner of

negotiations

it means they they value being

consistent and being read a certain way

is very very important

so liverpool are always going to say

something like we're really content to

keep our alex oxlade-chamberlain whether

they mean it or not is really hard for

us to know because liverpool are

prepared to go all the way to the wire

and keep alex oxlade-chamberlain if

someone wants to bid 9 million and

liverpool want 10 and a half million

liverpool probably going to keep alex

oxlade-chamberlain whatever the number

is take my point

just as liverpool may be bullshitting

and they have done in the past about

whether they want to get another pla big

player midfielder in this summer they

may well be bullshitting they were

definitely not in for tiago in fact um

liverpool's communications people were

laughing as a fantasy yeah we're

laughing at journalists who inquired

about liverpool's

reported interest in tiago and then he

signed for liverpool so liverpool were

[ __ ] danny ward was going to be

liverpool's number one yeah but then in

other summers liverpool said no well

let's take the center let's take the

center half example liverpool said we

won't be panicked into into recruiting a

centre-half for tens of millions

until we know the right one is coming in

and they were true to that word they

waited for canarty and they went to the

van dyke before then it was on their way

by 2017 they couldn't get van dyke they

waited until until january to get van

dyke yeah there were people uh you know

and it might have been me with the pines

on me he said why can't we just get

harry maguire for 20 million or

something or 30 million

so we know liverpool have rea a lot of

previously going no i don't want to

spend

30 million on uh on a sangara from iax

for example um or psv i can't remember

replacing psv um because that's 30

million that could go towards jude

bellingham next year

and liverpool can say that and really

mean it but we just don't know this is

the this is the problem this is why

liverpool have been so successful in the

market because they're really quite hard

to read and as fans that's very very

frustrating what i do personally find

fascinating is that

it seems beyond speculation now the

liverpool were inviting

and that was and the price was always

going to be hefty the wage was always

going to be half decent so it was a big

deal

it also seems

hard to to to believe that liverpool if

they'd signed you a many would have then

also go well by the way we're not

interested in bellingham in the future i

think they'd still

my reading is that if they'd signed to

her mainly they would also look to get

bellingham a year or two later i agree

so let's join the dots here liverpool

were interested in signing two big new

midfielders and one quite frankly why

shouldn't they be because the ones we

have in stock i know we're gonna come on

to talk about it are not getting any

younger so if liverpool were looking to

buy two big midfielders and they were

being prepared to wait for bellingham

anyway

it sort of makes you think maybe they

are interested in another midfielder

this summer because there's another one

you know outside two and a minute if

they want let's hear let me summarize

this

they wanted two within 12 to 15 months

bellingham's one who's the other it

doesn't matter he's going to come next

year but there is another name out there

that's all i'm going to say and that's

what i've concluded now he could come

this summer he could come in a double

swoop with bellingham next summer but

there's another name out there

yeah i think that is a way that

liverpool's sign

and midfielder and

without sort of you know oscar with all

these thoughts alive again i think i

think the conclusion that they've come

to

is that

i don't know what what what it's been

pushed by maybe it's the fact that they

haven't had the opposite for the likes

of chamberlain that expected to or or

maybe it's because you know too many got

too expensive and on other quotes that

we're getting from midfielders who we do

like and i'm sure it's not just him

you know a little bit sort of too wild i

i sort of suspect and you know we all

would all guess in here aren't we but

but they'll they'll think that the size

of the squad isn't what we have right

now is is what we're fine going into the

into the season with and i mean you do a

a video sort of series if that's a two

grand a wheel called the squad neil and

we did it uh just at the start of july

and it'll still be there on the app and

and we did it we'll do it at the end of

the transfer window again where we look

at the defense in the field and

attacking sort of you know fairly

forensic detail and what we normally end

up concluding correctly from wrong for

the midfielders is there's enough of

them it's just a question mark over hey

the quality but that's very much uh

you know an opinion

really you know people will have

different opinions on on the quality of

all our midfielders um but also i think

what is

fairly hard to disagree with when you

when you when you go through the process

that mean you go through is that the

balance isn't quite right and so so even

if you're you're happy to say that

they're all really good players and i

know people will listen to this would

disagree with that for certain

individuals and that's up to them i

think there is a slight balance issue

there and so that's where you think well

surely we could address that i think

i think if they get a good offer for

chamberlain he goes and then i think

they go back into the market and i think

liverpool are able to say well yeah well

that was that was when we thought

chamberlain was staying but we got

enough for him he really wanted to go it

was a decent officer we've let him go

and then now things have changed because

that's happened and we weren't

necessarily expecting it i think that's

the way we come out that everyone comes

out of it saving face including paul

joyce he doesn't give a [ __ ] but just

don't just on that though in the mirror

so i'll send you some mirror piece

that's disgusting amino liverpool are

happy to let leave looks like you may

well be going to monaco they appear to

be the club that are most celtic at the

moment i think you do really well there

to hasten to add yeah

on the mirror piece the language is just

really interesting and i think it's the

way liverpool speak like i think this

no one quite uses this language i think

about other clubs maybe i'm wrong

liverpool would prefer to lose him on a

freight this is a reference to

chamberlain in 12 months time rather

than sell them and be forced back into

the market for the midfielder like

someone's got to go and grab julian ward

and put a gun to his head and go whether

you like it or not you've got to go back

into the market for the midfielder this

is the fella who's theoretically the

head of liverpool sort of football

operations and the transfers if you know

what i mean it's this idea of forced

back is you know it's not the idea that

they want to move chamberlain because

they want to create the space which

throws me back to the lukaku

conversation and how liverpool appear to

approach a lot of this stuff a little

bit differently

um that's to me john the interesting

part of this because i

sort of agree with you but liverpool's

outlook

that they at least try to show to the

world

is

what happy we're settled we like these

we've got a plan for them we're going to

run them this is how this works and

that's an interesting shift from what

you hear from a lot of other clubs on

the whole the idea that for liverpool to

go into the transfer market they would

be forced back into doing so

yeah and looking there's a variety of

reasons why liverpool would want these

kind of statements going out because

even you know paul drewes is a really

well connected guy and you know we we

have to speak to people you know

throughout football and not just

liverpool football club people always

think leagues come from within clubs but

you know there's a variety of ways that

people get stories but regardless of

that liverpool don't want what you've

just said or the idea that you know what

i've talked about before they don't want

that out there without a reason so what

you know you gotta look at what is the

reason for that now part of the reason

for that might be just managing

expectations do what i mean like we

don't want the fans you know getting all

excited they're going to be midfielders

coming to them being flat that could be

a reason someone could also be just

being sound apologies to just say like

oh you know just sort of tell them yeah

that's it you know mate i wouldn't i

wouldn't

have a week in marbella uh that sort of

thing might be going on but the more

likely

scenario seems to me that it's a sort of

you know a semi-bargaining position

really that you know that

and this isn't me saying that you know

that could be it i think i think i think

we need to accept that you know there is

a there is a possibility that we do go

into the into the season with with the

the very very good squad by the way that

we have now but i think there's there's

so many moving parts in football and

there's so many different things and you

know the idea i just can't imagine

someone coming in with a decent offer

for chamberlain i know it's not going

well yeah so this is all the chamberlain

yeah

sorry john that's the key yeah which i'm

sorry

both these things but the decent offer

and what chamberlain wants chamberlain

if somebody says if somebody makes

chamberlain feel special and then he can

revive his career and there's as the

world cup we talked about yesterday is

imminent someone could say you're going

to start from day one you know west ham

could

spin him a line that he could be bigger

than jesse lingard you know who was for

half a season yeah bad goals forced his

way back into contention for a world cup

who knows but even even then just

playing every week would be nice at west

ham as well don't if they seem to be

enjoying themselves and alex doesn't

look like he's enjoyed himself for a few

months he looked like he was a struggle

to properly even celebrate the things we

were celebrating last season for him and

i i can't really blame him for that he

felt

i think i think he will if in private

moments he'll say he's gutted

so disappointed that he's not being able

to resurrect his liverpool career as

fully as you'd like i think he's i think

he loves being at liverpool but i think

he he more than anyone realizes it's

coming to a conclusion but it's

interesting that what how that's been

positioned liverpool being forced back

into the market because

i think it's fairly likely chamberlain

does go as you both indicated i think

it's really fairly likely he goes

because he because he will be telling

his agent i think please get me out of

here i want to play regularly so if that

happens liverpool have now i'm saying

they made a rod for their own back but

i'm not going to forget it

you're not going to forget it they said

they're going to be forced into the

market

i don't wish alex chamberlain out the

door because i really enjoyed watching

his liverpool career but the day he does

go out that door i will be i would be

holding louisville to account well i

disagree the two of you to an extent and

i think that they're going to stick with

it and i think that i think that he is

sort of broadly happy with chamberlain i

think if i think you have to imagine

what would have happened to sure many

would have

come in and i think liverpool's asking

price for chamberlain and this is where

they'll pull it back are then similar to

the lukaku conversation but they mean we

will take you nine million because we

don't want to carry the extra buzzy we

don't want the lad knocking around we

think we've got the right number we'll

just cash in now because we've got

enough yeah i think liverpool's current

position including chamberlain is we've

got enough if you see what i mean like i

don't know

that's genuine anyways

so this is what i want i want to talk

about i think they're prepared sorry to

introduce you i think they're prepared

to live in both universities that's what

makes them powerful negotiators they are

able to say in this universe we are

absolutely content i think jurgen klopp

is particularly good at that by the way

i mean i was you know glibly calling it

bullshitting or lying i actually think

they've prepared prepared to live in

that world and that world simultaneously

that's what i also think so to go

through the numbers from last season and

i want to get you on the balance point

that john's made but we've got the

numbers i've got the numbers for last

season in terms of number to start so

i'll just run through and i'll do a

little mini breakdown as we go um so

most started last season um is uh

henderson with 43. midfielders in all

comps of the midfielders yeah gets 43 in

all comps of which 28 are in the premier

league and seven are in the champions

league that's a 35 for the big two uh

fabinho is 41 all comps

starts yeah uh 26 premier league nine

champions league so also 35 for the big

two uh alcantara gets himself 26 starts

all comps 24 for the big two 17 premier

league seven champions league nabbi

keita 25 uh all comps 14 premier league

five champions league curtis jones 10

premier league two champions league 18

all comps chamberlain nine premier

league with three champions league 17

all comps

milner nine premier league three

champions league fourteen uh all comps

harvey elliott four premier league one

champions league uh comes to six total

or comps and tyler morton ends up with

six total and two of which are in the

champions league and one is in the

premier league uh we also curtis again

then later this was a ten league and two

champions league out of his 18 starts

it's maddie still only 20 by the way

over the course of the campaign yeah

doesn't he still only 20.

that could be start of season age

because they do that yes you turn 30 21

in january okay so that's the start of

the season start the season age still

young until it is still indeed young uh

i don't want to you know 30 in january

sorry 29 22 on the 30th of january's

cursor shows lots of numbers for you

they're going all the way through the

that's more than i expected henderson to

get over the course of the season uh i

actually wrote a thing for it for uh so

it's the most any players ever played on

the club in this

on 57 appearances this is just the most

than anything yeah it's mountains in it

any players ever made henderson this

season didn't quite see that coming 35

starts in all comes for being also 35

starts in all compensation sorry 35

premier league and champions league

starts and for being your 35 premier

league champions league starts that is

that all the maths on that all adds up

um effectively the you know it's it's it

equals 39.3 90s because chamberlain get

a couple of those games starting up

front so that sort of excuse it a little

bit everybody else who starts and

they're just starting midfield

chamberlain with a couple of fronts

means that it's 39.390 uh in there

across the board uh

no one breaks 30 in the league isn't it

that's i think i think you go back a few

years there was a bit more of that going

on

sorry genie did 36 years last year the

on that what the liverpool midfield

conversation actually reminds me of now

is it reminds me of the manchester

united midfield conversation between

2006 and 2010. what everyone would say

but we still haven't replaced roy keane

while they were winning leagues getting

the champions league finals winning the

champions league in there everyone would

say we still haven't replaced roy keane

yeah and when you looked at the numbers

as i have done of those united sides in

oh 607 0708-0809

the midfield figures are really spread

yeah uh because ultimately they played

433 and the midfield three was about

facilitating what everybody else was

doing so it was about sort of

continually getting legs on the pitch

and eventually the change at manchester

united you know everyone always changes

in football at some point but it's a

really interesting little comparison and

as i say the year in year out liverpool

need to go and buy a big midfielder

thing that i think we're now into uh the

second year of and even with thiago the

year before it felt as though it was

present as well in the summer 2019

hasn't

you know it hasn't borne in quite the

same way but liverpool have still

broadly been able to maintain being

successful you don't like the balance

or you think some people don't like the

balance what what when you think that

the balance might need to be different

what do you think

it's i guess it's the six really and i'm

feeling like if

if henderson's if for being oh sorry is

not available or we want to give him a

bit of a rest you know is henderson the

best person to do that also there's the

fact that if you're taking henderson out

of there you haven't necessarily you

know you can't use him in other places

really and so in a funny sort of way

we've become strongest in on the left

side of midfield um so if you if you

think about it as a free um

does the base

uh and then this left left

left left attacking midfield if you like

them right stack midfield but that's the

one way to sort of describe because the

right one does more attacking really and

so on that left side i thought that

became one of tiago or keita and they

were both doing their job really well

but i think that's casey jones's best

position as well yeah um and so so you

put sort of them free in there and i

really like curtis jones i don't know

not everyone disagrees with me sorry not

everyone agrees with me i'm disagree

with me

but but but i sort of really like him

there but i think but so so whoever

those please started in a league game i

will be really happy and even milner as

well yeah i think miller is great there

so you got four there and if any of

those four started you know in in an

even in a big league game i'd be sort of

i'd be like completely fine with that i

think in the other positions you get

into the third one and you're like

[ __ ] out

like like i'm not sure that's gonna work

like you know there's there's there's a

lot more question marks let me say if

you get into the third one you know so

so six you're playing for vino tenderson

who's the one after that and how are we

feeling about that the right-hand side

it's it's it's probably still a

henderson one he starts the champions

league game there you could do a bit of

keita there if you wanted to start the

semi-final there against city he does

the darts there against united yeah and

does all right okay so if you say you

see henderson kaito you face two choices

sort of there as well if you allow us a

bit of doubling up because we've done

that have you everywhere else but then

if you're able to move henderson into

six for whatever reason then you lose

some other options so your third one is

harvey elliot who started season well

but there's still question marks

obviously we've got big question marks

over chamberlain including will he still

be at the football club and so i think i

think that those two areas i feel like

you you i think but

even signing one of them will make the

other one stronger because if you if you

get too many and you say it's a joan

hansen don't even worry about [ __ ]

six maybe even have it again in your

life you know what i mean this is this

is sort of where you're playing now

really and also sort of the other way if

you sound the boss tag midfielder you

say to jordan more often than not you're

going to be playing here this season

does that make sense yeah no it does i'm

i i do think

i think we need another body i mean you

and i have discussed this

we only need another body if someone's

leaving is what i would say

well

i mean i always disagree but my argument

is i'm fine so the balanced conversation

i sort of get because what it actually

turns into is you'd like an elite you

had more confidence in which is not to

dispatch him at this point yeah or you'd

like you'd like a chamber and you come

back to the hills that's what actually

what you saying yeah

yeah

i don't want to block curtis jones and

elliot's progression and they're both

capable of you know klopp might say you

know what in three years time my two

eights are curtis jones and harvey

elliot

and at some point you just to let them

run but

i do worry and i know this is this is

the eternal threat of the fan

what things look like if fabinho who has

had lengthyish injuries before is out

for six or seven weeks

which is quite it's not impossible to

happen i don't think that's over

threatening to say that because

especially because he has got a track

record i know we've done that with the

front three endlessly but their track

records

with not getting injured to suggest that

that is over concert being over

concerned so fabinho out for six seven

weeks means you put jordan henderson

there at the moment that is the go-to

given the existing squad

but we have and you can see in henderson

starts figures we have rotated jordan

henderson a lot and we did and we got a

lot out of him by doing so last season

he recovered to have a really good after

a slow start to the season to have a

really good season we managed his

minutes really really well

if fabinho is out for a period of time i

wonder if you then end up playing jordan

henderson a little bit into the ground

and therefore having that negative

you're not just saying i'm six you're

playing them six heavy games yeah and

that negative virtuous cycle which we

saw in the um in the season before where

we were over playing players and people

were getting injured and injured and

injured

uh that is that is my concern with that

position in particular and i think i'd

sleep a lot better if we brought another

midfielder and look quite frankly

liverpool wanted to bring in churmani

right who would have covered a bit of

fabinho and a bitter henderson i think

that that is that sort of

yeah that sort of set of midfield

positions i don't think if you retain

alex oxlade-chamberlain

he gives you cover for those set of

positions

and that's even before you start a

conversation about what level alex

oxlade-chamberlain is

against the bottom 13 yeah yeah but

you've got to play them

yeah yeah sure but then again you don't

know when when the injury happens you

know i agree with that i agree with that

i think but i think though but what you

don't want to be doing is i don't think

you want to be run into the season with

nine

i think nine gets you to the point where

you've just got one too many i like i i

i'm all for you yeah chamberlain go

cheaply if that's the case

and that's clearly what they were sort

of looking to do but what they're not

going to do it's not just that sure many

comes into cover it's that they see him

playing sentiment for liverpool for five

years if you see one i mean like i think

what this conversation actually is or

what it is for some people

is whether or not you go and buy a new

fourth or fifth choice center mid

and let chamberlain go because you feel

as though he's eighth and you're not

jones and elliot or milner down the

pecking order to the point that you

might have an idea where milner finishes

the season next season his eighth choice

yeah and others have sort of moved

around in your pecking order but that's

so the question is whether or not

there's an argument to basically go and

get a utility midfielder yeah if you see

what i mean but i don't think that's

what liverpool want to do

in the way in which they go about their

business and their sort of outlook and

their structural thing and that's why i

think it's a structural conversation

it's not just a player conversation it's

a structural conversation

yes but it does always keep coming back

to the fact that liverpool won't buy

anybody but the right guy right so

that's what i mean yeah

yeah so

i think they probably went into if you

go rewind three months looking ahead for

their midfield plans i think numbers

joint first on their list were let's say

chuamani and bellingham right they

thought we'll get one we'll get one this

summer and maybe one the next summer or

we'll take stock then but as long as we

get one in this summer

what's played out and they will have

known this is that bellingham is very

very unlikely to leave this summer and

two and mainly chose real madrid

there may be in their planning still too

much of a drop off to their third and

fourth choices for them to move this

summer that's what we can't know it

could be that they think their third and

fourth choices are readily available the

year after

if they can't get bellingham or whoever

but that's what i i think and that's why

liverpool have to be positive

about about sticking with alex

oxlade-chamberlain because they could

very well have that scenario emerge

you can have a defensive midfielder

a mixed midfielder for once of a better

phrase someone who can play six and

eight or someone who's more an eight

who's done ten tennis stuff which of

those three would you like

not the latter one

um i think i won a six eight

yeah probably on the balance here rob's

taught me into jordan henderson i knew

jordan henderson please i'd like to

attack a midfielder uh and you just

accept that henderson cover six and you

you flip between fabinho and henderson

uh and you look after them by virtue the

fact that what you don't do is play i

think i genuinely don't think for being

you should have started the final in

hindsight but also at the time i don't

think for being you should have started

the final um i think that there's i

think there's still more than enough for

henderson at six to do i also think

liverpool were always going to dominate

possession and the idea to henderson

moving it faster from six would have

been no bad thing and i also just sort

of think in general for the season for

bino and henderson can can share

certainly for the first half of this

season can share the sixth role between

the two of them so i'd add the i'd have

the attacker midfielder of chamberlain

would you have played in midfield then

out of interest i mean does it really

help

would you yeah see i think for your man

city i think i might agree with you more

because there's a subtle difference in

the world

city city truly play one six and two

eight tens yeah that's how they play and

they often ask their wide their front

three don't do what our front three they

often ask that they're the widest to

their front three to actually be

supplementary fullbacks

but i think that the thing that you've

described that both of you said you'd

won which is the mixed player is the

thing i actually think we've got the

most of henderson tiago kaita

milner all fall very firmly into that

category for me and i think liverpool

being turned curtis jones into it

whereas they've only got one who i feel

as though still sort of has the the

framework of the pure sort of attacking

midfielder for this and that's elliot

and they've got two maybe even three who

could just play as a six depending on

certain games you could even just lash

tiara go in there and trust for the best

meal in the place their way at

southampton milner's the six away

southampton starts there i feel with

milner i feel we've been saying three

years

and and this will be mildness last year

we can't really count milner and you

know that argument's never going to

weaken with each passing year and yeah

but not in your club's mind yeah

and yeah you know what

jake i still i think i think again doing

two things at once i think you've got to

sort of right in mind planning i'm going

to write james milner off and allow

myself to be really surprised and in awe

of what an athlete he is with but he has

to be seen as a wonderful bonus i think

given these ages

i had him down is getting five champions

league and league starts last season i

wrote a big thing about this so i think

they feel the work when there's loads of

links with soul then i was saying so

we'll be one too many and you know you

get very few things right on a regular

basis doing this job but my god or soul

nico [ __ ] has done a great bit of work

for all of us uh over the course of the

last 12 months but i said i said i'll

get five league and champions league

starts he got 12.

i will write again this summer that i

think milner will get five league and

champions league starts and the [ __ ]

prick will get 12. this is fair you

can't you didn't think we were going to

play 60 games at one of those no but but

i did say league in champions league

because i think we get to go all the way

in everything

in the big two so you know what i mean

honestly james milner will be laughing

his head off getting 12 again at the end

of the season and making us all look

daft

um i think curtis jones would have

expected to get i think he's looking at

the numbers you've

yeah league in champions league but he

gets a lot the season before as well

yeah that's because of necessity but but

caters jones being gated jones they

probably go well i'll kick on from there

but even he'll be a little bit

disappointed and he ends up behind

behind harvey ellie it's obviously the

start of the season the pecking order

which i don't really enjoy either he's

very unlucky in one phase where he gets

that eye injury which keeps him out for

ages at a time where there were starts

to be had for him

and also it happens i think just after a

phase in the autumn where he's really

electric uh brentford away i want a

really big pre-season from curtis jones

yeah smile like if you want to give me

free to watch in pre-season yeah one one

of them is the big fellow fronts he's

gonna have loads in obviously uh but

curtis jones i really want to be happy i

wanted to have curtis in positions one

two anthony

i would like i would love if i could

talk yeah if i could make a realistic

wish for the season like one of harvey

or curtis wishing two seems to be asking

too much to have a serious breakout

season something i'm not as possible not

something not a million miles off like

foden's breakout season i'd really like

to see that from one of maybe that's

asking too much of them but i think they

both have it in them

so that by the end of the season we got

oh no one of those lads is a first name

on a team sheet level okay last thing i

want to talk about talk about very

briefly in this we'll do calvin ramsey

another time i've got to leave something

for tour live at the end of the week uh

liverpool and for gutter as well a big

quarter this weekend by the way you

guttering your head off this week i

presume oh i am guttering my head off

for those who don't know those people on

mars um the transfer gutter show we are

doing twice a week throughout the summer

and we are talking about all the links

and i mean all the links of footballers

to liverpool um so we have a packed show

for you tomorrow tune in subscribe do

tune in subscribe download the app get

there from that liverpool are happy

they're going to end

probably john happy in a realm where

they only get 40 million for money and

seller there was a there was a chap on

twitter he was asking me about this

trying to say this is like because

there's this perception that liverpool

are very much

business orientated this is the the

criticism in a sense uh around the

fenway sports group ownership is that

they know the value of everything um and

they work from there it's

start from the basis of whether we agree

or not with the idea that you know that

with what liverpool's policy is with the

way liverpool do the business

whether we agree with it or not we need

to move from the position that they know

what they're doing and there's lots of

evidence that they know what they're

doing and they've thought it through so

what have they thought through because

it goes against them this is the thing

i'm trying to sort of drive at the way

in which we've grown up perceiving the

football business for however many years

old we are yeah i think the football

business the business of football in

terms of the assets that are the players

i think it's changed and is changing

markedly in the last three or four years

and i think that this is a great example

of i think liverpool have been ahead of

the curve in it but i think liverpool do

know what they're doing and they are

oddly happy to only get 40 million for

money and salary even though there's a

moment where two of them are arguably

three of the best and the best in the

business and what they do in the world

yeah i always felt that what would

happen was we'd

resign one we'd sell one and one to go

on a three now no that's not sort of

quite worked out i think there is a

covert thing where it sort of knocks

everything and i think it'd be

interesting what would have happened

if it hadn't been for the pandemic and i

think what might have happened and

obviously you know this is speculation

is that last summer we got a really big

offer for for one of them probably more

and more salary if we're honest and then

he sort of goes then and then you sort

of end up in a situation where we feel a

bit more comfortable signing one of them

on on a biggest deal and then and then

for me you know maybe sort of goes on on

an affiliate but that but that's sort of

speculation well i think it so to sort

of answer your question a little bit

more directly than what i've just done i

think

first of all when people do the sums

there's always numbers that we don't so

so this person who tweeted you was doing

the sums on would only let and you know

these people getting this much so much

for these players which is which is you

know is correct and undeniable but

michael edwards julian ward obviously

will be doing much wider sums which will

include by the way how much money have

we saved by not putting these guys on

these big contracts last summer when

when we could have when everyone wanted

to and again as i say when you add these

not small numbers you're talking a

million pound a month you know in terms

of you know that that's what you know if

it's if it's a 250 grand a week jump

which is basically what sadio mani

wanted it's a million pound a month so

that's a lot of money so i would say

when when we're trying to do these sums

we always need to remember it's not

quite as straightforward as you know

just looking at the transfer fees that

we've brought in the they'll be looking

at the money they've saved also and i

made this point on on another show a

couple of weeks ago uh but i think it

was a

so it was wild card so people might

might have missed it and i might make it

better this time i think

from a liverpool point of view the whole

thing only works to the degree it's

working now if we manage to persuade

these group of players

pay

to play for slightly less than what

they're worth collectively and so we've

got the we're

we've got the seventh highest turnover

in world football and i think the best

squad

i could have i could have an argument

with a man city van if you want but but

let's say it's in the top two so we've

got the top two best squad with the

seventh biggest budget now that only

works if

we're knocked back by a state yeah so

first of all it can work if

um if you've got you got money united

you're spunking money all over the place

like idiots you know that's one of the

ways you sort of get ahead but generally

you need to outperform your wage bill

and that's what liverpool have done but

eventually these lads go no i don't what

do i perform the wage bill thanks very

much i won't weigh in from whatever but

we can't sort of put them all on that so

i think they backed themselves

to to to find the next slide i don't

think jane club sat around here going

well wasn't it really lucky that we got

manor and we got sallow and and this

sort of happened i think he's loved

working with them i think they've been

brilliant players and i think he he

loves them dearly but i don't think jane

club sat there thinking these are the

only group of players that i could have

had the success with i think he boxes

himself his coaching staff the

environment and culture at liverpool

football club as well as people like you

know henderson and milner who it's

interesting he has pushed forward and

said no these these are the people that

you do sort of need to sign up to to

basically create the situation where we

are

over performing and and i'm careful with

those words because we are a liverpool

footballer we are a super club as you

always point out neil and i i believe

that we we we should be towards the top

and we should be sort of challenging for

everything but so did a lot of other

clubs and they're not and so i think for

us i think you know we have to or we

have to be in the position where

we are getting more out of what we're

paying footballers than

than where we sort of sat and i think

that's why we can't have the sort of you

know once the lad starts

saying i want this and i think i can get

out there we've sort of got to say

goodbye to a couple and it's a shame the

two big ones are happening around the

same time but that's the reality

i i think what has uh

turned the tide of liverpool's view of

how you deal with these contracts

will have happened i think a few months

ago when sadio mane's agent became aware

that bayern munich were going to give

him what reported 300 330 grand a week

i think if you rewind a year liverpool

were probably saying to themselves

we can probably box sadio wasn't playing

as well a year ago let's get that right

we can probably box sadio by just

keeping him on similar money what he's

on now but get by letting him play at

least 33 at liverpool maybe a little bit

more mo make a bit of an exception

around him and and he'll earn more than

sadio uh because he's had a better

season than sadio and you know it's it's

even sadio will get that so they might

have had that general player so so so

sad he'll get 180 200 grand a week mo

will bump up from 250 to 290 or

something

and they'll both be broadly happy

there's a disparity but they're both

getting weighed in into into their

relative football dotage

then somewhere along the line bayern

munich spoke to saudi ara's agent and

went we'll have you for 330 million at

330 grand a week

sadio bounced back into liverpool and

goes look how they value me you want to

match that i still like being in

liverpool i think that's quite likely a

liverpool word absolutely not there is

no way you're getting 330 because we

have to give you 330 then most hours

demand for a million a week we're

definitely going to have to do that as

well and by the way

virgil van dyke is going to come

knocking as is so and so and so so that

is going to create the spiral of madness

we are totally against

um and by the way sadio you weren't even

that good last season i don't i know

everyone's blinded by sadio's last four

months of his liverpool career but he

has he has an 18 months we're not at the

elite level so they're thinking you can

[ __ ] right off from that and they

started looking around saw darwin nunes

emerging as one of the top three or four

young strikers in the world

and diaz as well these are some serious

players available who will play who will

sign for the reported 90 to 100 grand a

week wage which is nothing in in elite

terms

okay the fees are big these these are

swaps we need to make at some point you

are bringing this forward for us and

that's how i think this has caused this

to play out such that it is unlikely as

we stand today that salas resigns for

liverpool okay um contractors rewards

contracts to sign followed by

contractors rewards uh which

sadio and seller both got contractor

what comes next i'd argue they got that

as well and then contracts as uh

millstones and liverpool make the

decisions between all of these as they

go the wider points just to sort of sum

up is i think it's hard to think a lot

of this stuff through because i think

liverpool are trying to do it very

differently but i think also

simultaneously so are our rivals even

the ones who are backed by the states to

refer back to manchester city sterling

gundam and silva and gabrielle he's us

all linked away amarez's contract i

think they're just going to run it down

by the way city i think city are just

going to remark as his contract down and

that's why he wouldn't surprise i think

it's going to happen more yeah

more and more across because i think i

think where sort of one of the ones

who who it's happening too fair so

everyone sources [ __ ] themselves

i think we're the ones who were also

comfortable with i've decided we're

comfortable with it happening yeah so

emory chan's the first one that we do

with two and the new sort of video that

we just say to emily chamber we can't

come to an agreement don't you worry

about it we'll see you later on the way

bye for being you know for 50 million

to add a couple of you know a couple of

weeks after that's decided and that's

really interesting i think that yeah i

think it is going to happen more and i

think it's now you know it's happening a

lot this if you look on transfer market

the number of big contracts that are out

next summer um is massive and some will

get resolved but this just might not i

think well there is no but there is a

complicated thing with sadio mana is the

classic case of this people i think we

would have let sadio mani run down his

contract if we hadn't had a compelling

alternative on the market yeah they can

decide decide whether that's a diaz or a

nunes but had that player as we've

talked about with midfield has not been

available i think liverpool have said i

don't want 35 [ __ ] million from bar

muni we'll have you to run down your

contract instead

but that's where i think that bucks that

trend john if someone's got someone they

can bring in now because they go well i

would bag you off for him anyway so you

can we'll get a fee for you but where

they can't then they'll then run it down

well to come on all this more to come on

ramsay as well more to come on the

philosophical questions what does what

doesn't constitute value what does or

doesn't constitute worth and our worth

and value difference it's the anfield

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