INCREDIBLE DISCOVERY in Psychology by Muslim Woman (Muslim Mental Health Explained)

because I have patients come often in

their families and they'll say but it's

definitely gin because we're so

desensitized to Witchcraft witches are

actually going into supermarkets in

broad daylight and putting curses on

food look at this right now

one prayer modern Psychology today it

actually says modern Psychology today

has quote lost its Soul the songs that

are out there with the 50 cents the Lady

Gaga's and stuff can you sit with a

psychiatrist and he'll tell you like you

need to stop listening to uh to Chris

Brown

[Applause]

[Music]

show

I'm here with Dr Rania Awad who's a

clinical associate professor of

Psychiatry at the Stanford University

School of Medicine where she is the

director of the Stanford Muslim mental

health and Islamic psychology lab as

well as Stanford University's affiliate

chaplain she also serves as the

associate division chief for public

mental health and public Sciences as

well as the section co-chief

faculty member of the abacia program in

Islamic Studies and training and I can

go on we're going to get right into the

first question but before I do that

how are you alhamdulillah doing well

thank you for joining us

place and I can't wait to see what all

of this is going to become soon

inshallah

I've known brother Eddie and I didn't

show for many many years and as a matter

of fact I was one of the original people

who showed up on his show alhamdulillah

he's been doing a great job

alhamdulillah

through his show through his activities

in andawa right now they work in

hamdullah on a great project the dean

Center which is now taken this dhawa

from such a small show to become nice

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shout out for the dean Center hopefully

inshallah you can look into it and put

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support the dean Center

[Music]

people are maybe saying what's these

things rolled up we haven't got the

carpets yet but these are the carpets in

Charlotte gonna be laid down

bless this effort along that I mean I

mean I mean I mean so I want to ask you

we often hear some very ignorant people

or just you know people who might have

good intentions but and some people not

so good intentions make statements like

what have Muslims ever contributed to

humanity in similar words or sentiment

how would you respond to that because

you recently talked about Muslims

creating the first hospitals in human

history amongst other things mashallah

the first hospitals in human history to

have psychiatric sections or Awards

within those hospitals which is truly

and amazing things finally think about

it other civilizations have definitely

had their caring Health Care Systems

hospitals and Care Centers but what you

don't find what's very much missing in

those is a psychiatric mental health

treatments which meant that the Muslims

really understood that you had to be

able to treat mind body and soul

together you couldn't actually separate

them out so their healing institutions

literally in Arabic we say

or in Persian fantasy and any of the

uradulla speaking languages you'll know

that the word be mod is illness Stan is

location so the term was B modestense

they had these mental health sections

within their hospitals and that is

unique there's something there that

essentially inspires the Muslims to say

there's no discrimination between

physical health and mental health and so

that is a major contributions

non-muslims have written about how the

hospitals we have today their blueprints

are literally owed to the

muslimaristans that were created by the

Muslims that actually those were the

blueprints for the modern hospital today

so this is the first in human history

you're saying we can't find any proof of

this in other civilizations not the

Romans or Greeks not the Chinese or

Indian civilizations where they're

actually here in the Muslim

civilizations you find the first of

these hospitals being created and the

psychiatric sections within them all

right jumping into this term mental

health and I'm going to give a very

simple

definition you tell me is this simple

enough mental health includes our

emotional psychological and social

well-being it affects how we think feel

and act it also helps determine how we

handle stress related to others Etc is

this simple enough it is a simple enough

mashallah answer it's it's a very big

umbrella term when people think mental

health sometimes they go straight to a

clinical diagnosis they think depression

anxiety trauma but actually mental

health is this very big umbrella under

which you find anything related to

interactions between other people so

parenting marriage things related to

kind of how we deal with and communicate

with individuals in our life all of this

can be helped by mental health and by

counseling through mental health if

there's issues or disruptions in any of

those interactions uh can you unpackage

the term Muslim mental health Islamic

psychology of course yes yeah so most of

the mental health and Islamic psychology

are two terms that are connected they're

adjacent to each other I would say but

they're different so muslimental health

is really the mental health of Muslim

populations whereas Islamic psychology

is anytime you put the word Islam before

something it means that you have to

start with Islam first so the foundation

is Islam and from there you build a

psychology so it's really a ground up

versus a Muslim and health is much more

what we say kind of a top-down approach

so you might take the field of mental

health today and see how it fits with

Muslims you might filter things out and

kind of make it customize it for Muslims

whereas Islamic psychology is different

you actually start with the Sharia first

the foundation first of Islam and build

on it and understanding of the human

psyche and that was something that the

our Noble predecessors from centuries

ago had actually written about

extensively what is the human soul what

is the human mind what is the human

connection to all of these things and

how do you better oneself in terms of

wellness and what are the ways in which

you do so so that is an Islamic

psychology so they're connected Fields

but different from one another when you

brought some of your research to your

professor did they feel like they

reached the maximum now that they were

like okay we discovered it all we got

all the labels everything but then now

what was the reaction from was it you're

teaching your professor when you brought

some of your research and you had shared

this with him right yeah that was an

interesting story and and certainly his

first reaction was no no we've we've

already figured all of this out as in to

say and it was really interesting too I

mean a great person don't get me wrong

but he was absolutely saying but we've

published everything there is to publish

about this already and he even

historically he was saying he pulled off

papers from his shelf about here is what

the Greek said here's what the Romans

said here's what you know and my

question very simply to him was but can

you read in Arabic and he kind of took a

step back and said no can you and I

think that's what kind of unfolded this

whole understanding of often what you

find in the books related to most things

not just Health

um and psychology but most things you

find the Greeks and Romans mentioned and

it's almost like this complete skipping

over all the way to the modern era and

in Psychology especially skipped

straight to the 19th century Europe

you're talking about you know

essentially a as though they were the

forefathers of psychology completely

ignoring anything happening in the

Muslim world and most of that is still

untranslated it's not actually available

in English and so I think when he saw

the translation or asked me to go

translate it and I came back with a

translation he was very excited he

realized the scientific potential of

what we were seeing that's something

like in this case it was OCD

obsessive-compulsive disorder and we

have another paper on phobias very

similarly he realized that actually it's

going to rewrite history it's going to

rewrite medical history in that this

wasn't something that was discovered in

the 19th century like they were thinking

and had always taught us in school this

way but actually these symptoms these

constellation of symptoms existed for

humans probably since the dawn of time

and that in itself rewrites history and

so you know I was really thankful that

he saw that and even encouraged me to

publish and that's kind of how a lot of

the work even in my lab started tell me

here's here's one thing help me

understand this help us understand this

you would think because we're so

advanced

as a society would think with technology

we have so many academics so many

psychologists psychiatrists in these

fields of study in mental health so much

money being spent so much money being

made so many drugs being prescribed but

we have more mental health mental health

is a crisis like never before what is it

like what are the statistics like every

two and five people something like that

depending on what you're reading yeah

you would think now that it would be on

the decline I mean but it's on the rise

it seems like a a contradiction here how

and why and especially after the

pandemic the numbers are kind of

astronomical in comparison I really

think the pandemic did something I think

when we all went into isolation and it's

almost like the truth was told if you

will and so it's almost like we say like

a like a cover was like ripped off with

the truth kind of unfolding of how

people were really doing and I think

there's a lot of distractions in the

modern world right a lot of we're

plugged in almost constantly and to

really deal with the matters that are

really at hand like how are you really

doing with the people in your life

interactions human interactions how are

you actually dealing with how you fit

into the world and your role like what's

your purpose here we're always so

distracted by the modern world and

everything that has to give that when

people were in isolation and in lockdown

I think that kind of a lot of the

realization came and also mortality so

many people were dying and there was no

real cure or solution to something like

covid in the early months and so there

was really a sense of like what is the

purpose of life and I think a lot of

people went into that existential kind

of like Crisis as well as isolation

really did a number on so many people so

we're seeing a whole lot more mental

health and that's continued that trend

is continued since

um and to me subhanallah I'm not so

surprised because what we understand

from an Islamic perspective of Wellness

right and mental health being one part

of the Wellness Formula you realize that

unless you're kind of spiritually sound

physically sound mentally sound you're

not actually sound altogether

and ignoring any one of these you end up

being in balance in a sense of you know

lack of balance and so to me it's it's

not just a mental health crisis it's

actually a crisis of balance altogether

this term mental health what was it

labeled before this is an English term

obviously in Arabic what would you call

it and is there a rich Islamic history I

mean obviously if there was the first

mental health or

clinics or hospitals in hospital dealing

with this there has to be a very rich

history and then giving it to your

professors about the rewrite history of

today yes I we don't know was this stuff

suppressed like many other things that

are suppressed and you know or lost

translation translation time yeah so

talk to us how how did the Muslim

thinkers the psychologists what were

they called at that time

yeah the term psychology doesn't show up

in Islamic traditional Islamic history

but what you do find is this word called

the science of the Neffs or the self

and the science of the self exactly and

it's really interesting this is

um was very different than today today

you find most people writing about

psychology are scientists they're in the

medical or scientific professions but in

traditional Islamic history it was very

interdisciplinary you have the

scientists writing about this but you

also had the folks who were writing from

an Islamic perspective so all those who

are theologians those who are writing on

the betterment of the self so Hassan

basically or Hassan Sciences were all

tusky and essan we're all actually

writing on our Windows as well and then

you have your philosophers interestingly

enough also contributing so it was very

interdisciplinary because they came at

it from this interconnected

understanding of a human psyche Mind

Body Soul so you have those who are

writing about the cognition those are

writing about the heart the metaphysical

heart those who are writing about the

the basically your soul or your spirit

and those who are writing about the

nephesis understood in the Quran and so

all four of these aspects are very much

interconnected in the Muslim version of

this and so their science was much

richer than what you currently have in

Psychology today

so are you seeing now a conflict here

because you might be sitting in a

psychology seminar or whatnot and you're

saying hold on we have the solution here

but you guys don't want to even

acknowledge a soul or you don't want to

these terms that we have we can actually

cure a lot of these things and now

you've seen a dilemma here with this guy

it's so interesting I mean there is

actually there's a modern

um criticism of psychology modern

Psychology today it actually says modern

Psychology today has quote lost its soul

they don't believe in a circle they lost

theirs they lost their soul here's why

because if you look at 18th century 19th

century writings on psychology in the

beginnings of kind of what we call

Modern Western psychology a lot of the

writings we're actually interested in

the soul but there was a lot of writings

on the soul and on interpreting what is

the soul what is this ephemeral kind of

you know thing that you can't really

touch but you know was there a lot of

writing on dreams for example in modern

today like modern Clinical Psychology

today what you find is anything you

can't reproduce in a lab anything that

you can't see under fmri or kind of MRI

machine that you can't touch or

reproduce is invalid scientifically

speaking so they stop studying the soul

so literally

the pun here is actually intended that

psychology quote lost its soul and with

that you find a lot of people not just

Muslims I have a lot of colleagues

throughout the nation actually who are

doing work on kind of a religious and

spiritual aspects of psychology kind of

trying to bring that back into the story

saying you can't be a well-rounded and

balanced human being if you don't have

spirituality connected to it and so if

there's a whole group of folks where you

know Christians or Jewish folks or

people in other Faith Traditions

actually trying to bring spirituality

back to psychology and the Muslims are

right there with them and doing that

take us back in time in history what

could something like that look like if

somebody how would someone get diagnosed

at that time would you think would you

say that they had maybe some mental

health issues could it be someone just

having so much stress anxiety maybe

someone went away from Allah from God

Almighty and now they're feeling the

effects on their soul and then what kind

of therapy what would the scholar of

that time the person the physical

physician of that time the person the

doctor of the self the Neffs would come

in and sit you down talk therapy where

they give them some therapy of Quran how

would paint a picture of how would that

go well it was like we mentioned how I

saw an animal nests or Islamic

Psychology was very interdisciplinary

the treatments were also very

interdisciplinary so what I mean by that

is the one who I was running the most

about Al belchi from the 9th century the

one who I wrote about for OCD if I use

that example obsessive-compulsive

disorder what he says is very

interesting he basically says look all

humans have all of us have a certain

level of whisperings of shaitaan that

kind of makes us doubt or kind of Wonder

you know if I did something or didn't my

third prayer what's going on here and he

says that all people this is normative

all people have some level of this but

some individuals have what he calls a

pathological level meaning a clinical

medical level of this where it's really

overpowering you and so what he says is

for those individuals he gives three

solutions right so he basically says one

solution is in their pre-modern time he

would say take medicine and he actually

kind of gives you a concoction of like

what you would use in a pre-modern sense

of what would it be Physical Medicine to

take

and then another another part of the

solution is talk therapy which I thought

was so interesting because the kind of

therapy outlines in the 9th century is

exactly what we use today he actually

literally describes to you a kind of

talk therapy called ex gradual exposure

therapy which for something like

treating OCD you basically takes

something that you are concerned about

worried about over feeling very

overpowered by and you gradually slowly

but surely kind of expose that person to

it and eventually it kind of overpowers

it and so it kind of extinguishes it and

so he literally outlines this the 9th

century which is phenomenal and then the

third part of this he says and you can't

have any actual treatment unless you're

going to have to look good or dependence

on God so he brings a spiritual aspect

and he reminds us of having patience

having dependence on Allah after doing

your part which is the first two taking

your medicine and doing your therapy and

at the same time also making sure that

you're doing your prayers and connecting

to Allah so he basically outlines

effectively a basically a biological

psychological and spiritual aspect of

how you treat this condition and that is

exactly the solutions you find in so

many of the writings of the early greats

when they're talking about what today we

would call mental health condition

they're bringing the spiritual but

they're also bringing the biological

physical as well and that's very

impressive that's why we call it Islamic

yes Psychiatry because now it's

different than you're sitting obviously

there's that also talking but you people

Envision okay you go to a psychic to

psychologist psychiatrist psychiatrist

is more has the personality prescribed

medications yeah but we we see in we see

a an influx where drugs prescribe

prescription of drugs you know years

you're sat with someone and now you'll

sit for an hour two hours and then from

there you'll get a prescription from a

drug and sometimes unless sometimes it's

so much less yeah I mean people talk

about sitting with a psychiatrist for 20

minutes and then getting up you know

essentially 20 minutes yes sometimes

people will say all I got was pills

pushed on me and I I would say I'm and

I'm not I'm not the only one like this

but I'm very much an oddball

psychiatrist I probably do a lot more

therapy than I do medications would you

consider yourself like a holistic uh

mind you're trying to be yeah Allah

definitely that's the goal absolutely

and I do think the importance of

holistic medicine and hopefully the

field is actually starting to move more

and more in this direction but

definitely there's been a lot of

criticism of modern Psychiatry and just

pushing pills right as opposed to really

dealing with the root of the problem or

the opposite you find people who are

talking talking talking and not really

getting to really the issue which may be

biological and requires medication so

you have kind of both extremes and

nothing really balanced in the middle or

very little of that have you heard of a

psychiatrist by the name of Dr Kelly

Brogan

I have not now she talks about this

she's also someone who went she was your

conventional psychiatrist and she

narrates

um and others that she felt like she

wasn't helping people um she was

prescribing drugs and she found that

this was actually making matters worse

in a lot of cases and when she went

towards more of lifestyle and she went

more towards holistic she actually saw

starting with what people were nutrition

you know what people were putting in

their bodies all of these things she saw

she actually started seeing a difference

and she started getting more motivated

on the flip side she's narrating that

she was really felt like she was so you

know what she's doing she's doing

essentially a modern day be Madison

and the modern day be Madison the modern

day hospitals that the Muslims had when

you so okay so this is look back to

Islamic civilization absolutely here's

what they would do if you look at the

the care team that was taking care of

the patient at that time

it's it was not just the physician it's

so interesting in the book that we're

writing right now about the mimatistans

it's so interesting they have the

Physicians they had the nursing which

makes sense somebody who's taking care

of the patient but then also they had

with them the person who you would call

The dietitian who's actually working on

the specific meal plan for this specific

illness mental illness right figuring

out what the balance in their meal would

be to help them get better you also had

the pharmacist rotating with them which

basically is figuring out what specific

types of medications herbs concoction

needs to be given to this person also

rotating with them you had the person

who today in today's language we'd say a

social worker somebody who figures out

you know it's not just you here at the

hospital or in the clinic it's also your

home life so what do you need in your

community at home to be to do okay to do

better both while you're in the hospital

and outside of it and they have the

sixth person which is basically your

today you'd call this person a hospital

chaplain basically you're a spiritual

provider the person who gives them

reminders Islamic reminders on God all

of these people would rotate with each

patient every single day to take care of

them so when I say interdisciplinary I

really mean interdisciplinary care

because you have everything kind of

addressed not any one part of you is

left out in the story so yeah this this

is what we're talking about a holistic

approach not just there's a pill for

every ill that's right and now you end

up just masking the symptoms that's

right are the root causes of what's

really happening yeah what is this term

so how would they this is a popular

diagnosis isn't it it's bipolar okay and

how would you think if you take us back

in time how would again someone who is

labeled as bipolar how would they go

ahead and the same thing we're going

into the same procedures pretty much

it's some of the research that we were

looking at compared to today what is

what is what is diagnosed for bipolar

yeah so it's interesting some of the

diagnoses fit very well in what we're

seeing historically some of the

diagnoses are harder to tell so in

bipolar disorder you find basically Two

Poles right some somebody who is most of

the time actually depressed kind of if

this is your main if this is kind of

like your status quo kind of like the

where you're normally living at if you

will somebody who's bipolar is often

below this in kind of a depressed mode

and every so often they hit the other

pole which is kind of a manic pull which

is they're very excitable very happy

very very very

um up and but it's not sort of

productive often that very hot Mania

essentially is not a rational State

unfortunately and so that person is

actually doing kind of decisions and not

even realizing sometimes what they're

doing because it's not fully rational

and maybe making kind of riskier kind of

decisions that are not very useful what

do we find historically we're finding

that at mentions of individuals who were

not in a rational state of mind and so

what would happen is they would help

them by having them in the be Madison's

right these were places most mental

illness was dealt with at home actually

but if it was something so acute or so

intense this is where the hospitals are

very helpful to them so this is what I

meant by the balanced meals the balanced

medications the reminders of Allah even

subhanallah using things like all of

your senses so that so it wasn't just

medications they were receiving and talk

therapy they were doing but even things

like the colors The Sounds The Fountains

The Greenery making sure that they were

hearing and then kind of consistently

even using the the what people might

call today music therapy but it's

actually not so much music it's more the

tones

based in different kinds of bakam to

actually calm a person who's very kind

of very agitated kind of calm them down

or somebody very depressed to bring them

up there was a whole science to this and

they would actually bring because in the

Quran you have different parts yes of

course reading people would adopt

adopted the Balcones different tones in

the crowd to use that as you're reading

so when you read for example verses

related to heaven and you know and and

Paradise you're going to read up but if

it's something about Hellfire you're

going to read kind of down you're not

going to read that with a high tone

subhanallah so even adapting them on

that to the recitation of Quran was

healing so they would have also

specialized Rockies at the time who

would also do healing with with the

current with the Quran and subhanallah

even the institutions the Muslims did

everything beautifully with Assad with

Excellence right even the way remember

there's no microphones this is all

pre-modern so even the way that they

would build the angles of where the

patient rooms were wherever you stood

you can hear the Adan in your room like

they were very particular in making sure

that everything was dealt with and all

the senses were dealt with I interviewed

a psychiatrist

uh an American he said well not Muslim

and we spoke about the different terms

that are out there nowadays and he just

uh brought to light he said that and he

put it in terms of the insurance

companies because there are a lot of

term diagnoses nowadays and he said that

many of these were developed because the

doctors had to go ahead and be able to

Rick a pence from the insurance company

so that's why they had to classify

certain certain certain things with

certain patients to go ahead and receive

the yeah so uh what's your opinion on

that now like obviously someone can be

like you heard hear certain terms like

what some popular ones someone's toxic

narcissist this and that and the other

and there are people that fit certain

terms but do you see a lot of these

things also being weaponized nowadays

and this can also backfire where this

can also instead of elevating someone

you know to kind of you know get out of

certain bad habits that they might be

you know exhibiting

what in Psychology what in Islamic

psychology how do you deal in terms of

this where you don't fall into the Ayah

where Allah is saying don't insult each

other you know good use of good words

how do you approach this from an Islamic

perspective yeah an Islamic psychology

is very interesting because you're

talking about now kind of personality

disorders what would be in the in our

books of diagnosis of the DSM for

example on personality disorders and

Islamic psychology is very interesting

one of the things that I find very

important is that in these books of

diagnosis you're not going to you're

going to find certain diagnoses and

certain personality disorders but then

you're going to find a whole section

that is very important in Islamic

psychology completely missing from these

manuals so for example things like Envy

greed right avarice

um glut any you know any of these

basically we would call an Islamic

psychology and in Islam in general the

diseases of the heart you don't find

this you're not going to find a

psychologist diagnose you with something

like greed right right but we know that

that is problematic islamically it has

to be worked on and so the the matters

of the heart so in Islamic psychology

you have the aspects that are clinical

like the depression and the anxieties

and so on but then you also have aspects

of the heart diseases of the heart that

have to be purified and worked on as

well which here it doesn't even take

into consideration it almost frustrates

you a lot very much and when people come

to and Muslims come to our practice you

know I've hunted it I was very honored

to and blessed to help set out a few

different Muslim mental health clinics

and when people come Muslims come to

these clinics they're looking for both

things they're basically saying look I

may be someone who's somewhat depressed

or I'm dealing with anxiety maybe a

person has a social anxiety they they

have they get very very nervous kind of

in Social settings they want to work

through it but in addition to that maybe

they also have something else at home

they're kind of like you know in public

they're kind of have the social anxiety

about at home they're kind of like a bit

you know a bit of a monster right like

they they yell and they kind of make a

big fuss and so on and they want help

with both things and in Islamic

psychology you can work on both aspects

whereas in standard what I would call

Western psychology you wouldn't have the

space to be able to do both things

you're limited there there's a

limitation and the limitation isn't that

the person doesn't want to if they're

simply the clinician simply is entrained

you know if you try to tell them I'm

somebody that's very jealous right and I

see that jealousy show up a lot in my

marriage for example and it causes all

kinds of frictions and issues the person

it may be trained in marriage therapy

and can help you with specific things

within that maybe communication and

skills but when it comes to diseases of

the heart and matters of spirituality

they they're like I this is above my

ability and you know clinical abilities

and so part of part of the work that

we're doing right now is actually

building a clinical competencies in

religion and spirituality for clinicians

and part of it too is building and part

of the book that we I helped kind of

edit and co-write is a book on

introducing Islamic principles into

Clinic medical mental health care it's

this book is published and Clinic

clinicians are actually able to purchase

this and actually go through the

training of something called tiip

traditionally islamically integrated

Psychotherapy so we've developed a kind

of psychotherapy where you bring in the

Islamic principles and that I think

inshallah can help kind of both of these

issues we're talking about what about

the term what about the concept of

forgiveness holding on to grudges is it

limit is that another aspect that's

limited here that we really stress on

this in Islam right what about this area

is this something that's limited and how

much does that play a role in mental

health

holding on to grudges being unforgiving

not letting go of the past things like

this

and it's interesting forgiveness is is

Major I mean the psychology in general I

would say and there's always

um here when we say about Islamic

psychology what is it that's different

and what's different here is Islamic

understanding of something like

forgiveness because we understand that

we as humans have this capability But

ultimately Allah forgives even if we are

not willing and can't to hold on to that

Grudge he may forgive that other person

right and so ultimately that that Grudge

may end up kind of wearing down on us

and hurting us when in subhanallah

ultimately the final state of things is

actually with Allah

so in Islamic psychology we often talk

to people about look you may not be

something may be so heinous and so

harmful truly maybe even criminal that

something happened to the person that is

so traumatic to them that it's like I

can't get myself to forgive and so we

work through them with the through

through this in cycle in our therapy

sessions and work on maybe it's not so

much forgiving right at that moment

because it's not about forgetting what

happened like this is a real this is

part of your narrative we're not asking

for it to be erased right but actually

letting go of the part that's kind of

like wearing on you every single day and

wearing you down literally and realizing

that ultimately is the one who makes the

decision on what happens to that person

right that is a completely different

frame of therapy that I think you would

get in kind of your standard therapy

what do you think about this book do you

know about this book I was introduced to

it earlier

um and when I started practicing Islam

it's called don't be sad you know this

they do yes yeah what do you think about

this book and there's one part in the

book it talks about this letting go of

the past right and it was very powerful

the way the author talked about this how

this is a form of insanity just dwelling

over things of the past that can drive

you crazy and

they can for some people it can actually

kind of cause them to really it wears on

them so much that it's that they're not

able to kind of progress in their own

life like we talk about how that other

person that caused the problem in the

first place may actually be going

forward kind of enjoying life even in

the person who who was harmed is holding

on to it and harmed by it to a way that

they're not progressing in their own

life and they're holding on to it so

much so part of the work that we do is

really helping them be able to move

forward even if it's not a full

forgiveness and you're going to leave

that to Allah the part that you're able

to do is being able to progress forward

in your own life in Charlotte

so it does like you said earlier it does

and that was one of my questions how how

much does food and you touched upon it

how much does food our environment how

we sleep the everyday chemicals from

shampoos to makeup to some of the the

medications how much does that play a

role in mental health

well as if you come from the perspective

of everything is connected this kind of

interconnected system everything we're

talking about this is why the concept of

holistic healing is really the Islamic

concept of healing and which is why on

one hand you don't discriminate mental

health from physical health right on the

other hand it's also knowing that

everything is connected to your mental

health right so your physical well-being

um and and you know brother Eddie I have

to ask you because I know that there is

mashallah aspects here of having a gym

and having a facility to actually work

out and I think that's so important for

mental health that's very important for

mental health absolutely yeah okay

absolutely 100 and I also have to ask

you with all the aspects Michelle you're

doing in the Dallas Center I hope we'll

also see a mental health section here

too yeah yes a holistic a holistic

mental health section yes like I said

inspired by these Madison's you

obviously know about Tony Robbins right

he's one of the gurus in motivation and

that and I like where he put in people

who were attending because he had a lot

of Muslims attending a lot of his stuff

and he has a

section A Day a whole day on nutrition

sure yes of course I mean if you think

about it what you you know they say like

you know you are what you eat the kind

of concept and and you also are what

your company is you know there's a lot

of things that you are based on what's

kind of the intake that's coming forward

you are what you listen to you are what

you you are what you listen to

absolutely okay honestly what you think

about all the senses right all of these

are Outlets to the heart is in the

Muslim belief so the concept here is

what you're looking at what you're

hearing who you're interacting with what

you're saying all of it kind of affects

the heart both positive and negative and

the heart is the conduit in the Islamic

tradition that Imam al-az Ali his

concept is his his model if you love

human psyche is that the heart the Khal

is at the center and connected to it is

cognition right connected to it is your

emotions it says connected to is zero

rule we write your spirit to your soul

and connect to it to is your neph's

yourself and so all of this is very

interconnected but the heart is really

at the core in the Islamic tradition and

so this concept like I had says of the

Prophet sallallahu alaihi wasallam if

the heart is sound the whole body is

sound and that's why the physical health

is part of the nutritionist part of this

your sleep is part of this your prayers

are part of this as well

now you mentioned the what we see what

we hear in modern day

Psychiatry do they hit upon these things

where we don't have to get into the

growth test and a lot of the filth

that's out there that the eyes see

things that Muslims should be far away

from you know explicit you know I'm

talking about both rated R even rated

some of the things that are rated R that

would directly from the eyes to the

heart does modern day psychology

psychiatrists will they tell you to stay

away from some of these things or some

even the you know the the songs that are

out there with the 50 cents the Lady

Gaga's and stuff can you sit with a

psychiatrist and he'll tell you like you

need to stop listening to uh to Chris

Brown you need to you know as uh will

they touch upon these things or so

that's what I mean that's what I mean

the difference between your modern day

or even almost trained in modern day

psychology to Islamic psychology I think

where the difference is is that there's

going to be limitations right where that

person may not be focused on the

spiritual hearts and its purification so

they may not be able to say something or

willing to say something like stop

listening to that music right but in

Islamic psychology understanding that

everything's connected and the physical

metaphysical heart is really what we're

trying to get at and purify here then

yes you would find that the Islamic

psychologists would say maybe what

you're putting into your ears and

listening to it is causing a kind of

insanity right of like a kind of

dissonance right like you're listening

to something that literally is Haram to

act upon so why put that into your ears

right why put that into and even the you

know Allah tells us about eating right

like it's like why are you putting

anything other than that into your body

right if it because if Allah has

commanded it and you do other than it

then clearly it's going to shift you

away from kind of that centered self

that we're trying to get to

can can people be led to a position of

like you said you're listening to a

would you think an insane person and now

you think you're not going to go insane

so this is this is a really this is an

important thing to to remember this is

uh powerful let's say you've gone

through you've gone through many of the

modern day

strategies you've done so many of the

other things and I and we understand

some people jump on what I'm going to

show you maybe ahead of everything else

and some would kind of dismiss this but

where would you say is a is a nice

balance Okay so we've exhausted all

means and now we come to another area

that modern day Psychiatry really

doesn't accept but we as Muslims do that

these things do happen we have in the

morning we have a Cod we have certain

certain duas of God that we say to

protect us from the Satanic evil forces

that are out here now this is

interesting this is a Christian who's

talking about this and then they

actually you know we think this a lot of

stuff is far-fetched but they actually

caught on tape what might be surprising

even to you that in modern times that

people are actually doing this the enemy

is so blatant with his devices that at

this point there's daylight witchcraft

happening they don't even have to

conform to Darkness anymore they don't

even have to come out and creep out in

the night they because we're so

desensitized to Witchcraft witches are

actually going into supermarkets in

broad daylight and putting curses on

food look at this right now

one prayer from a Christian and you're

getting arrested you give out a Bible

they will actually arrest you but see a

witch come into a shop and start cursing

the Breads and putting on the honey like

this person is literally putting a cast

on bread and honey and regular everyday

items in ASDA like

and it's just nothing and people are

just walking around I don't even know if

the person was reported we actually need

to be interceding and praying over our

food no we don't live in fear no we're

not intimidated no we're not scared

people who are gone that's my reaction I

right away think like you cannot take

for granted or miss the simple things

like the three course

sure you know 100 times

you know you have the you protected

people take these things for granted you

know being under would do what are your

thoughts no no incredibly important

incredibly important what are your

thoughts seeing like in supermarkets

where you would actually have type of

people doing these things you know over

the food and subhanallah I would say

it's as old as time it's as old as time

this was now it's you know yeah exactly

the prophet salallahu alaihi wasallam

specifically instructed us to protect

ourselves from the scene and the Unseen

and people have a really hard time with

what is this unseen and it's and it's um

you don't know like you don't if

something like this is like you weren't

there when it happened necessarily so

you don't know and there are other

things that we don't force is

essentially that we don't know when

somebody you know we talk about like

iron the evil eye right yeah and I know

a lot of people try to blame everything

on the iron but the reality is not

everything is to be blamed on it yeah

whether or not it's dying we're told to

read our puts right to read the three

we're also told to read right to protect

ourselves and our families from anything

that could be harmful and so it's it's

part and parcel of our tradition to

protect ourselves from the scene and the

Unseen and um subhanallah I think it's a

it's it's a good reminder to continue to

do so so what at what point do you you

after you've exhausted everything do you

have you determined sometimes that okay

we've done everything can this person

had been maybe possessed by a gin or

something you know what I know after

stringent you know

um

therapies and whatever else you go

through but have you ever seen like you

know that it's this is this is the case

this is it actually and have you ever

witnessed that you've been a part of

maybe say Iraqi and someone's who's you

know uh recited Quran and somebody after

that maybe the Jinn left have you ever

and we and we understand that some

people you should not get to a point

where you just you know right away your

you know you're you're blaming this at

the start of it you know what I mean

that's what I appreciate by what you're

saying brother Eddie super appreciated

because I have patients come often in

their families and they'll say

um but it's definitely gin and you know

it's interesting conversation often with

Muslims when we have this because that

could be a dark hole you know it's never

ending you know what I mean you know and

what I say to them I say the reality is

I'm not a gin doctor I'm a psychiatrist

and so what I'm able to do though is and

I'm very happy to refer them to any of

the shield in our community who are able

to read the Quran dude help that person

we with the understanding that they

would also in parallel be able to seek

out this mental health psychiatric

treatment here's why Islamic sure but

here's what I want to say the reason for

that is we know that so many people will

go straight to only doing Quran and

while for some people as you mentioned

this may be useful it's one of the Shia

actually did an incredible study I don't

know if you've seen the study but it was

actually he took uh Phillips took all of

these cases of Jinn that were brought to

the shoe have you seen the study so

interesting they were brought to shuke

and he said he kind of Quantified all of

these cases and after he looked at all

of them he actually found that a very

high percentage I forget the percentage

maybe 97 was actually psychiatric in

origin

yes his research and he said that the

Rarity may have binge

you know Supernatural cause but the vast

majority and the ordinary everyday kind

of cases related to even psychosis was

actually something psychiatric and

origin a biological origin and that was

really important I think eye-opening for

so many people including the to say look

let's make sure that we have a good

partnership with the mental health

providers to say let them deal with

what's actually part of their domain and

let's make sure in parallel to make sure

that there is for each and every one of

these individuals because you can't go

wrong with Quran it's the sin of the

Prophet salallahu right and stick to the

prescription that Allah the almighty the

Creator prescribed praying five times a

day minimum

making sure you're staying away from

toxic

things or influences and people and

environment this I mean you don't want

to be going to a nightclub where you got

all shaytans in there true you think

you're gonna keep your sanity right and

in addition if it is a actual

condition medical condition the prophet

salallahu was very clear on this when he

was asked by the sahaba should we seek

out treatment if we're ill and he said

very clearly he said

seek out treatments o Servants of Allah

foreign

and so the reality is if there is

illnesses that exist on Earth there's

also cures so seek out treatments and

his Sunnah was when he was Ill

sallallahu he took medicine like he

actually took treatment in addition to

prayer and I think that's what's very

important and sometimes missing for some

of our community members I have a couple

more questions for you do you feel now

to be talking about mental health do you

feel that now uh what's what's been the

reception now from the Muslim Community

do is the Muslim Community

um accepting to this term mental health

issues problems are they in denial is

there something that's now when you

mentioned Islamic history with it is it

something that's being more acceptive so

it's interesting I think in the last

um definitely five years ten years

definitely more so than ever before

certainly from when I was growing up

there's much more acceptance I won't say

it's everywhere I think there's pockets

of acceptance and I also think that now

you have for example next year at

Stanford University we're going to be

hosting the annual Muslim mental health

conference which is in its 16th year and

so if you think about that my lab itself

the muslimental health and Islamic

psychology Lab at Stanford is going into

its 10th year mashallah I think all the

research and all the work that's been

happening in that decade has really

changed the tides in this conversation

there's still much more so much more

work to do I think I think when Muslims

start to understand their legacy their

Heritage they're very proud of it

they're willing to not only kind of

accept it but also know it but to revive

it and realize that we've always been at

the Forefront of anything called mental

health because we understood holistic

health and wellness

there there's much more of an acceptance

of it so many more people are choosing

this as a career I didn't choose this as

a career I feel like my story has come I

came to this completely in a different

way unexpectedly subhanallah and Allah

is the best of planners but so many

people Muslims today are choosing this

as a career and I think it's powerful

that you're going to have Muslims that I

hope are kind of practicing their Gene

understanding their faith and actually

wanting to help people in mental health

so I think we're going to see more and

more of this as we go forward okay so we

have some couple questions that just

came in and then we'll conclude how do

we stop blaming shaytan when things

don't go our way and we don't have

control I hear this often this is the

work of shaytan shaitan broke up the

family you should be a better Muslim and

not listen to shaytan

well the shaitaan is always going to be

a play he says so in the Quran right we

know he's always at play absolutely

absolutely I mean the verse in the Quran

literally says that he's going to

literally sit in our path and continue

to cause us trouble until the last day

and this is almost like an oath that he

takes right and Allah says to him but

you won't be able to touch the Believers

right and so this is a beautiful thing

where despite all of his attempting

ultimately we have the tools to be able

to push this away and blaming shaitaan

on everything is very much like I was

saying earlier blaming shaytan on

everything or blaming thine or evil eye

on everything or blaming uh sahetra

Magic on everything there's some portion

of this to blame Shore but we also have

to ask ourselves where are we like

where's the self-blame in the story of

actually saying what did I contribute to

the story right and also what are other

factors that have happened so when you

kind of go to an extreme and say it's

all shaitaan that too is a very extreme

position that's not going to help you

see your role in something because

you're also externalized again to

everything and everyone else as opposed

to saying what did I do to cause the

troubles in my marriage right what did I

do to cause the troubles between these

two individuals that are not on good

terms so yeah there's there's definitely

a place in having a balance in this too

not taking him out of the equation but

realizing what are you putting forward

as well so in summary what would you

what kind of advice would you give for

someone who is struggling with anxiety

with so much stress they feel like this

life is just overbearing every day

waking up to the same drama drama and

whatnot and and they're they're kind of

stuck and they're listening they're

tuning in yeah and they they've been

classified with so many different

diagnoses maybe from different

psychiatrists one gave them uh two uh

labels the other one gave him another

one I think it's you know they're just

lost and thinking like where can I get

help they tuned in and where would they

start well the first thing I would say

is I would say I'm so glad that you're

here and tuning in alhamdulillah

secondly I would say I'm glad you're

asking these questions right I think it

starts with acknowledgment it actually

starts with saying I think there's

something off here that I'm continuously

waking up to a cycle of difficulty the

third is really reminding ourselves that

this is this is Allah calls this world

this Dunya that we live in the Abode of

tribulation it's meant to be a place of

trials and tribulations and so if you

are experiencing trial after trial it's

a very human thing that's happening

actually and every human has their own

set of Trials right in tribulations no

two humans are going to have the same

set of them but it's part of ardunia

because we know in the Hereafter in the

agenda all of this is going to go away

and I think that's what you hold on to

is realizing that there's something so

much better after this

fourth though is to say we know what the

Donia is we know kind of the elements of

what it makes up that these are trials

and tribulations what do I need to do to

get support and help and so I'm not so

much and I tell people this especially

my own patients I say I'm not so worried

about the actual classification the

actual the label right I'm concerned

about the aftermath right so what's

happening here so if you're so anxious

all the time so overwhelmed all the time

the label might be called anxiety but

what's actually happening and if they

say well what's happening is I can't

actually meet with my friends I can't be

able to go out and do things I'm stuck I

feel literally in a rut and I say well

that's what we need to work on right and

so getting the support that's actually

takes a lot of courage and to say let me

get help and support right part of it is

spiritual part of it is physical part of

his mental right part of it is cognitive

and emotional all of these come together

in order to support you so really the

fifth part of the story of the five that

I've just mentioned here is after

acknowledging that there's help needed

is actually taking the physical steps to

actually get that help and knowing where

to get the help and getting the best

help possible to me that is Insha'Allah

that Allah says you know if we take the

one step right towards him right which

is part of this right because he tells

us get help like the Hadith says get

help right and if you take the one step

he actually takes several and if you go

walking he comes running as the Hadith

says and it's a very powerful and very

beautiful thing to realize that Allah if

he sent you difficulty he's also going

to send you help and assistance

with difficulty comes ease and so I just

want to tell everybody if you are I

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in peace be with you assalamualaikum

never let go of prayer ever your

connection with your creator absolutely

it is an absolute must mashallah thank

you thank you very much

bless you and bless the dean show and

bless all the efforts that are happening

here in Charlotte thank you so much

and I'm so excited to be here at the

dean Center mashallah which is under

renovation and I can't wait to see

what's going to come inshallah there's

going to be a dawa Center there's a

Masjid there's a school in Islamic

school a gym and what we hope in

Charlotte will also have a mental health

part of this Center as well inshallah so

I'm asking you to please make sure that

you support this effort inshallah I

really hope that it spreads and really

the knowledge of Islam and people to

know more about Muslims in Islam through

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