DAY BREAK | Why Kenyans are rejecting the Finance Bill 2023 (Part 1)

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welcome back this is Daybreak on citizen

television thank you for staying with us

now getting to the discussion to discuss

the major highlights of the Publications

and the topical debate on the finance

bill 2023 with main studio is on my far

right Fredo Congo the secretary to the

azimir Coalition thanks for your time

good morning Fred good morning and thank

you so much to him is the senator

representative muranga County on YouTube

good morning good morning thank you

Senator and his counterpart from the

county of Casey Richard donka on my

immediate right thank you senator for

making good morning morning and good

morning to you as well let's begin with

the

growing concerns and what the paper on

the front page the standard calls the

Rebellion amongst MPS in Mount Kenya

this as yesterday more unions warned

lawmakers against the proposed taxes

calling on the National Assembly not to

pass the the proposed Bill the finance

bill 2023 if it's not amended Senator

beginning with you I mean how does the

government address the growing Rebellion

against the taxes which is commensurate

with the

government's insistence on the finance

bill 2023 saying that it must pass valid

it must pass Parliament

um thank you first of all I'm happy to

see you because we haven't met the

studio before

I want to tell you this there's nothing

that is going to happen this bill will

pass why this team cake Airlines they

have got the majority

and the truth and the reality is that uh

I'm sure the president is monitoring

what everybody's doing

why because he wouldn't want for the

first time his wish

to be thoughted and that is to make sure

that the bill passes

whether the the bill is going to be

popular with Kenyans right now the bill

is extremely unpopular but the president

has an agenda the president had a

Manifesto

uh in fact the joke we make amongst us

in the opposition is how we wish Kenyans

would just give Rooty words

because if Kenyans are complaining they

elected him okay so for us we are saying

let him let him increase the tax tax to

100

because Kenyans need to understand like

it has been said before choices do have

consequences

Kenyans are now winning I believe to sit

down and begin to look at ourselves

when we are choosing a presidency when

we are picking a candidate actually what

does the manifesto say and what this

money what this team says is really what

people should vote for and right now in

Kenya we are not voting for anything in

other words whatever that President

William Ruto is doing in my thinking

deserves the Kenyan public

because Ruto came in the things which he

used to say we in the opposition used to

find them outrageous we knew it would

never work out

but look at where we are now every

single thing that he talked about that

he would do is has got a replica

reversal of exactly what he was going to

see he said there would be no taxes look

at what he's asking for okay I say the

fuel for prices you remember when he was

talking about fuel for prices I mean

prices for fuel yes look at what

happened what has happened since he took

over come to when he was talking about

look at what is happening we are having

a bloated cabinet when everybody is

saying we need to have carefulness we

need to change our style we need to

reduce our lages we need to stop this

thing of wastage in our country okay and

Senator when you talk about and those

specific remarks yes the president made

then as a presidential candidate on the

26th of July last year during the

presidential debate yes but you seem to

be not having confidence and hope in

Parliament yet it's the institution that

has been constitutionally placed as this

top Gap measure to check on the excesses

of the executive I mean where is the

where is the loose link here is it

because they don't think and read

through this to understand that the

public is not it's not popular among the

public or is it a case of just

shepherding them who serve the interest

of the political party and its

leadership rather than the public the

point

we keep making we in the opposition is

this

what

what makes Kenyan vote the way we do

why is it that frequently and constantly

we keep saying how we can make a mistake

whether it's from the MCA come to the

Member of Parliament move out to the

governors go to the National level why

is it that we actually don't elect

people who eventually deliver for us the

reason for me is that the political

parties we have have nothing to do with

the manifestos that we bring out for

Kenyans the manifesto is just as she

read is a document used for political

experiencing so that then people can

come up and and convince the Kenyan

public that now vote for us now once the

voting has taken place like it has

and I said it's a joke so I hope Kenyans

don't think I'm saying let's increase

the taxes once somebody has been elected

the way President William Bruce has been

elected

whatever that is doing Kenyans deserve

it because we were electing a president

so that Kenya can change he said okay so

that Kenya can grow okay so that Kenyan

can can have uh can get itself out of

the messages but look at it now you have

got a country that is in debt okay but

the president wants to income on it but

Senator when that responsibility passes

from the public yes we have parliament

in place and that has been my question

yes then what's the point because they

are in a 416 members of the bicameral

Parliament Youth and it has included yes

what's the point then if they can't

check on the executive at the best

interest of the public thank you the

structure that you we have right now we

have a parliament that is pro the

executive

the members of parliament including many

of us in the Senate and even men members

of the county assemblies where we we

come from they do not understand that

they are supposed to check the president

they do not understand many of our

members don't understand that once

you've come to the National Assembly you

can actually pass a law which is against

your party but which is pro-kenya and

you can explain to your voters if my

voters call and tell me no please uh

Senator mobilize the people because we

think if we give the president the taxes

then it will be easy for him to manage

our Affairs I can actually vote against

the party

it's allowed in democracy but we have

not understood this in our Kenyan

democracy per se that's why you hear me

saying we have not understood that this

democracy that we keep on working with

is not supposed to be do or die that we

must agree that some of us will be

defeated some of us will win and once

the government that takes power that

government must understand that my job

as an opposition Senator is to oversight

them and to talk how things are not

working thank you Senator coming to you

um there seems to be a dilemma just

caught two members of parliament from

the mount Kenya region

says I caught her the bill is punitive

and oppressive to the same Hustler who

gave us the Mandate representing them in

government are counterpart from the

count from the constituency of gatanga

Edward Murillo says government must

restore lost Trust of the public so that

they get assurance that money collected

will be put into good use that is now

aside as to the management of the men

that will be collected if say this bill

is passed by the National Assembly but

there seems to be the growing discontent

not only among the leadership but also

among Kenyans what's your position

uh thank you very much

I think right from the answer I want to

say that uh The Honorable is entitled to

her Democratic right of you know

expressing herself about what she feels

and about what may be her interaction of

the people of idonguri

has maybe

you know brought out but uh one thing I

would want to correct

is this particular headline in the

understanding today that this Rebellion

amongst Mount Kenya MPS I think

this is actually alamist and I don't

think it's amongst MPS because uh from

what you have said The only person as we

speak that maybe thinks that the bill

will not serve the interests of Kenyans

in Mount Kenya I think it's the

honorable

and so if this uh if the standard was

going to be fair then it would it should

have been saying that there is a

rebellion and I don't actually think

that I don't know is rebelling she's

just expressing her her views on the

bail and that is not Rebellion as for uh

MP Edward de Muriel I think you have

rightly put it that he's just saying

that we need to build more confidence

that when we live in a in in the charges

of taxes on the people that we should

then go ahead and see to it that the

same such raised Revenue then is

expended in a way that people will be

comfortable with because I think

we do not have a problem with with the

the problem we have rather is that when

people maybe feel that you maybe are

collecting revenue and not delivering

services in the way they expected and I

think we have we have a problem but all

having been said and done and I don't

know whether that is within what you'd

want me to respond to but if you allow

me I think I want to thank

because For the First Time I have had a

member from the azimir admitting very

well that the president Williams Ruto

was elected and he has confirmed that

twice and so I think just a minute

Senator yesterday

let me finish and so I want to thank him

because I think from his side and from

you know the leadership of his side

there has been like you know you know

that kind of complaint and people have

been like some of them have even

actually not been referring to the

president as president the legitimate

question

but before you go to we'll talk about

that because will be happening there

will be a parliamentary group meeting

but on to the question yes the constant

factor in this equation yes and the talk

that we're having this morning are the

Kenyan people yes and gardeni for

example she's just a minute yes agreed

but she says

this bill will be punitive and

oppressive to the same Hustler who gave

the Mandate and you campaigned on that

as your springboard to get the Mandate

of the Kenyan people yes and out of the

more than 1 000 memorandums which were

submitted to the committee on National

Finance and National planning of the

National Assembly more than 970 have

rejected the proposals as contained in

the finance bill I mean I just want to

understand your position

well my position is that of course

anytime that you are paying it's painful

and and I

this is as old as humankind you remember

even in the Biblical times uh you

remember people that used to collect

taxes

people like zakayo I mean tax collectors

in fact people are very mad with them

and at one point I remember

people actually complained that Jesus

was you know you know you know keeping

the company of tax collectors because

for them Tax Collectors who are Public

Enemies and so anytime anyone or us

including ourselves when we are expected

to maybe cuff out something more or dig

deeper into our pockets of course it's

painful and so I want to agree with

radoni and uh in fact everybody else

that it is going to be painful paying

more it is painful not nobody enjoys you

know paying but but then we have a

mandated to deliver all right the Kenya

Kwanza government has mandate to delay

okay there are services to be offered we

need money we cannot continue borrowing

all right we have to raise it uh locally

thank you and that is that is a balance

maybe we should be talking about Point

noted and we'll talk about the Prudence

of the money that we have collected

because Kenyans have been paying taxes

since Independence that's right and the

prudencies of public resources Fred the

the opposition made clear the position

of the Coalition political party on the

finance bill 2023 today there will be a

parliamentary group meeting I mean going

forward then how will your members do

the Practical bit of what's needed on

the floor of the National Assembly in

making clear the opposition on the

finance bill

thank you

I am very disappointed this morning

I'm disappointed after listening to my

good Senator here

that the government must get money

through heavy taxation

as a mere Coalition we have put our

position clear we have made it clear all

before that this is a bad Bill

this bill

is a bitter pill that is being forced

down the throat of Kenyans this bill

must be rejected to save this country

this bill is going to wipe out the

middle class this bill is going to

finish the poor this bill is not even

good

for their Hustlers that the people that

they call hustlers

this is a regime that came into office

by The Virtue that they claim to have

given proposals to support the lowly

placed okay we were shocked as a meal

that they are the same people that they

came up with a punitive finance bill

that is taxing everything everyone

everywhere we want to save this money

that our position Remains the Same we

have said that this bill we shall reject

it and we have said

because the people of Kenya are wise

enough

and they have asked their

representatives not to pass this bill

including in the regions that they

believe they control the KK themselves

when we chomba has said that days are

gone when the government what was Final

she has listened to the people of

yudonguri and the people of Gooding

don't pass that punitive Bill my good

friend Edward Mourinho we always appear

with him here has said that we must

restore themselves now they lost they

lost trust it means in only eight nine

months the regime of Kenya Kwanzaa has

lost the trust of the public and more so

by pushing a punitive bill that is going

to injure the public as you mean one

Kenya Coalition party

we have our PD this morning the

leadership will speak

and we know for sure that this bill in

the unlikely event that they push it and

it passes okay we have said before Ayub

it will be their bill to be not the

people of Kenya's bill it will be them

Kenya Kwanza strangling Kenyans

represented the people who are

represented on the floor I have they

have said yourself you have just said

that out of the public participation

that was done 75 percent have said

reject those are people who are

represented in the floor

so majority of the flow members have

said reject the bill through their

through the people that they represent

Kenya is a sovereign state are you

and that power that the people have they

can access directly or indirectly in

this one we would even want to encourage

the public

to even tell them of the Member of

Parliament

to sign a public pledge okay that should

you pass that bill then you'll meet the

route of the people because you let me

tell you as I finish on this fact

this bill

we were told sometimes back that the

government never loses

and they assured honorable Ruto that the

bill will pass

so and my good friend here I said they

will pass the bill

whatever happens they'll pass it do you

know what that means it means that this

is a pill that is being forced down your

throat take it or leave it Kenyans have

said yesterday the union public servant

Union demonstrated in town

they demonstrated their display with

this bill those are public

Representatives

they represent the Union

the public who appeared before the

finance committee they have said please

reject this bill this regime has two

options option number one amend this

bill and factor in the views of the

public as a way of Performing uh

effective public participation okay

number two meet the right of the people

the people waiting for them because this

is the bill that is going to wipe out

okay the poor that is going to finish

the middle class this is a bad Bill that

must be Dr John matunga joins us he is

the member of parliamentary thank you

for your time as well chairs the

agriculture Committee of the National

Assembly yes on Tuesday last week you

were at state house where the president

had made clear his case on why he wants

this bill passed on Sunday the day

before yesterday he spoke in Busia

County where he said this is Unstoppable

when you are at the Parliamentary group

meeting at State House were you

convinced as a member of parliament by

the president who leads the executive

and what compelling reasons given for

you to support that bill at the flow of

the house or if you have reservations

any can you start here

thank you very much indeed and apologies

for coming in late

um I want to correct that it is a

president who presented the bill to us

how to indicate that as Kenya Kwanzaa we

discuss and agree we interrogate an

issue we give our contributions and our

contributions are taken seriously and

positively so we discussed that bill to

align the extent there are very many

things that Kenyans do not know things

like

when you hear three three percent uh

payment for instance let me just talk

about uh increasing the the the PS you

want okay from 30 to 35 percent we've

been paying that percent but that

there's a cutting up to half a million

those who earn half a million on above

will pay that five percent on what is

above five five no five not five million

five hundred thousand those who earn 500

000 and above will pay that five percent

on what is above 500. on the other hand

you come back to this this fund which is

being created Okay the third before you

proceed to the fund just so can you talk

okay you'll proceed I'll give you the

time so that you prosecute your case

just specificity on the 500 000 Kenya

Shillings yes the Kenyan National Bureau

of Statistics packs that number at a

very low and the revenue can generate

from people who want more than 500 000

at the 35 percent you have said the

taxation will give you about between 45

billion Kenyan shillings what impact

will this have in terms of our tax

collection it is five for five billion

that we do not have right now it's 45

billion were forced to borrow for us to

fight to to fund the previous uh the

current the current budget the one that

is the 2022-23 budget we needed 1.1

trillion uh borrowing do we needed to

borrow about 1.1 trillion this has been

scaled down to around let's say 600

because the government has looked for

ways of trying to reduce it and to cap

the the borrowing not in terms of

waiving or maybe forfeiting and trying

to reduce the the the the amount of

money that we need to look for in order

to cause development in this country by

300 billion that was the declared was

around 99 billion and declared was

around around two or so billion again so

when you look at that if any Shilling is

useful in this country it is a country

which is going going through a very

difficult situation the economic

situation is really hard all of us know

that and let's not just talk as if we

are living in an island and let's not

use very huge statements the bill is

punitive the government is killing its

people we are wiping out the middle

class those are those are political

statements we are making let's look at

this particular issue in terms of what

benefits does it have and what kind of

you know what kind of you know what are

the do's and don'ts what are the the the

the punitive issues let's speak them out

this bill creates a situation where uh

those who earn more can produce can pay

a little bit more this bill creates a

situation where there is waiver of taxes

in some of the areas that have not grown

there is there is extra exemption

intermedias and then there is a

substitution from from from from

where we hand for instance uh the tax

that I mean a zero rating of vit in

certain Commodities to tax exemption

which means that we cannot therefore go

back to the government and the demand or

rather go to the sick for for for

payment of the vat from the the raw

materials that we use the procurement of

the raw materials there are so many

issues that are good in this particular

build but because we are political we

think politics We Believe politics drink

eat politics leave politics that is the

reason why anything coming from the

government is always bad I have looked

through this bill I have read through it

and I think I understand the bill is not

bad

we'll talk about this specific try to

pass it

respond to that I'll give you the time

we need to pay some bills when we get

back from the break Senator I'll take

your account and of course do a

follow-up on what uh the lawmaker

representing together was did say yes in

his remarks well welcome your

contributions the hashtag on Twitter as

Daybreak the SMS code is double two four

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Ayub we are back with more after the

break here on the broadcast stay tuned

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thank you