How to raise film and TV finance in the UK

hello and welcome to production gills

live webinar this evening my name is

Lauren Sargent director of Sargent discs

and I'd like to welcome members here

tonight at Warner Brothers d'Alene Lee

in Soho and those of you who are

watching live on YouTube for non-members

and those new to the production guild it

is the UK's most prestigious membership

organization for those working in film

and television production particularly

in drama and production guilds 800

members are the most experienced and

well respected professionals working in

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assistant directing location management

post-production and VFX if you'd like to

find out more about the production guild

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or help you in your career then go to

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discs which is where I work and we're

proud to be a business partner for the

production guild and also to be

supporting today's event over the last

thirty years we've worked on a large

number of productions and provided tools

to help in putting together finance

package and also to keep people on

budget fortunately we don't have to do

the hard work and go out and raise the

finance and there are lots of producers

working very hard to do that and we hope

that today's session will be of use to

any of you out there trying to do the

same before I introduce today's

distinguished panel I'd like to thank

Microsoft for supporting this event and

I'm pleased to announce that the guests

in the room tonight will have a chance

to win a surface pro 3 or a Lumia phone

in a raffle so at home unfortunately

you're missing out but will let you know

who won following the seminar there'll

be drinks in the bar and Microsoft will

be on hand to discuss clearance options

on their products for your productions

if you are watching live and you have

any questions about raising finance for

film and TV drama production please send

in your questions via the YouTube chat

box for this stream or through twitter

by using the hashtag PG raising finance

and that's all one word

these questions will be fed to me by

Alison here in the front row during the

webinar and if you're unable to watch

the whole seminar live the video will be

archived and shown on the production

guilds YouTube channel after the stream

has ended

so moving on today's distinguished panel

have first-hand experience a funder of

the fundraising process and bring with

them a detailed knowledge of many

different sources of finance and the

goal of today's session is to give them

a platform by which they can share their

insights and strategies as we look at

the full range of funding available for

film and television in the UK so first

on my left I have Ali Moss roof the

production executive of film finances

for those of you don't know film

finances is an independent completion

bond company specializing in providing

assurances to finance yours to ensure

the successful and timely delivery of

films now before joining film finances

Ali trained and worked as a production

accountant next to him we have Cassandra

six guard who is a producer of jiva

films and Cassandra set up Jeeva films

in 2008 to produce her own slate of

feature productions and most recently

working with the Blaine Brothers on the

short film Neena forever

next to next to Cassandra we have

Pauline Burt the CEO of film camera in

Wales and the film agency in Wales is

the main feature film body for Wales

providing finance information and advice

to the industry and palling and tell us

more about what what they do as we go

through questions next appalling we have

Nick hirschkorn who's executive producer

an MD of feel films and Nicky is a

successful producer who recently brought

little magic to our screens with the

popular high-end TV drama Jonathan

strange & Mr Norrell and finally we have

Chris Smith a managing partner at Rommel

soir and the ROM with swagger group is a

commercial consultancy who via their

offices in London and New York deliver

projects spanning licensing and product

development film financing and product

placement endorsement and sponsorship

personal public relations and purse

management so I'm sure there's no

Corrections for myself so I'd like to

start with looking at film financing and

in particular financing of independent

films and the last few years have been

an exciting period for UK film and

television and according to BFI

statistics a total UK film production

activity in 2014 was up 35 percent at a

record 1 billion 475 million pounds so

Ali at film finances you see a whole

variety of productions going through do

these figures tell the whole story and

are they representative of the

independent film producer and what

they're experiencing at the moment well

we don't do statistics per se where we

are so I I can only go on what we see

it's kind of anecdotal we're involved in

I suppose 50 films also independent

films just from the UK office so that

covers most of Europe and it's I think

it's very hard harder than those figures

might suggest for independent producers

to raise financing because it's again

just anecdotally we come out of meetings

and you see oh you see an enthusiastic

producer with their budgets and their

plan and their production and their fees

really are minimal sometimes and you

think why why they doing this so it's

it's difficult for them and we see that

the financing finance plans and all

these films are complete very different

very diverse there's new people that

come into the market people leaving the

market so whereas maybe five to ten

years ago I speculate there was more of

a template that people followed although

I can't say that for sure

now it's they're all very diverse very

different so that's the biggest trend I

think is that they're all different from

each other the finance plans there's no

set template you say there are any

particular trends that you're seeing at

all I mean the diversity is there but

their areas of Finance that see some

high net worth individual new equity

investors that you wouldn't a new to the

market that don't have experience in

film and for some reason they are being

attracted to it perhaps it's

some of the tax incentives or the EIS

schemes but there are more of those now

than I would say there were four or five

years ago they do yeah we see new

entries I suppose from that angle and in

terms of perhaps co-production or tax

relief are you seeing people looking

further afield and co-producing yeah and

you talked about shooting across all of

Europe yeah people are having to look at

people having to look at discretionary

funds they're going to three or four

countries trying to shoot according to

be able to get the rights rebates in

each region so you know turning their

film into a road musical notes in this

early road movie but for economic

reasons as opposed to creative reasons

or trying to marry those two so yeah

people are having to go hard after the

money mm-hmm Cassandra to move on and

talk a little bit about how you put

together your strategy for financing

Nina forever

and what sort of approach did you take

it sounds like it can be complicated out

there when you're looking to structure

this from the outset yeah it's a first

feature for Chris and Ben blame the bane

brothers who I was working with and also

for me so the strategy that we employed

was to go out there and raise just pure

equity basically we have had support

from the industry previously but with

this film which is a very unique story

about a young woman who falls in love

with a guy whose previous girlfriend

died in a car crash and every time they

make love she comes back from the dead

bloody and broken like the day she died

it's quite an unusual story and we chose

to therefore seek private equity so that

we could retain the Blaine's vision for

the film really to the best of our

abilities within a limited their full

budget and the the vehicle that we used

was a Nessie is so foreign about se is

it's the seed enterprise investment

scheme which was set up to support and

in car

investment in start-up companies and it

can apply to film production as well and

bigger films will use it as a as the

first level of tax relief for investors

before they then move on to an EIS which

is a less attractive from a tax point of

view but but can you know you can raise

more money through it basically and so

for us it was quite interesting in terms

of the investors who came on board we

had the two sort of cornerstone

investors were both familiar with film

and had invested in film before and then

the rest of our investors were people

who didn't really know much about the

industry but we're excited by either the

Blanes

or by the film or just wanted to dabble

and knew that they could afford to take

a risk with a small chunk of money

knowing that they were protected and on

the downside if you like with a very

healthy tax relief in terms of tax

relief basically 50% on your income tax

you know it's the relief that you would

get on your investment as long as you

pay enough income tax to cover that so

it is extremely attractive and then the

other thing that we did was we started a

a Kickstarter campaign so we also raised

crowdfunding which was a interesting

experience and actually very fruitful

not just in terms of raising additional

finance but also in terms of building an

audience for the film who then were

invested in the film and and will be the

ambassadors as the film rolls out did

you use a bunch of i/o phase to sell the

did you go via a company in order to

bring those investors in or did you just

set it up yourself with your own

accountancy firm and then go out and

find those investors yourself I did the

latter partly because we weren't looking

to raise that much money and partly

because I had some contacts so I was

able to to pursue them with the film

that I'm doing now I'm looking at

talking to IFAs to see if we can raise

bigger chunks of money with people that

I don't have personal access to but but

it is interesting when you do talk to I

mean I have got friends who are IFAs

am I allowed to say that and yeah and

and actually in terms of reaching the

people that they represent it can be

quite awkward at times because you know

film is still regarded by many as as a

risky business even with something as

attractive as an s-cis or any is to to

help protect the downside you talked

about the private equity route and that

being a way to keep creative control

what were the alternatives where you saw

a downside or where you thought you may

have to compromise what was there yeah

it's a feeling that any particular

source of finance my solution compromise

on that it's not to be honest maybe sort

of retaining creative control isn't

wasn't the only motivating factor it was

also about speed and and for example

like that the script

Nina forever I've received in early

November I gave some notes on the script

I loved it immediately but there was

some some concerns with a couple of

scenes and the boys went off and did a

rewrite I had at the end of the November

and we were filming end of March the

following year so that kind of speed is

very hard to do with industry funding

because the application process

purely will take you a minimum of eight

weeks if not longer and then you go

through development and so on see it's a

longer game plan really and we were

young hungry and just wanted to get on

with it and had confidence and what we

were doing in terms of creative control

the reason I said that I suppose is also

that the Blanes have a very particular

voice in terms of their artistry and

it's it's turned out to be the right

strategy because allowing them to do the

film the way they wanted to do it has

meant that we are now being courted by

sales agents and distributors and

Industry money to support the next

project I think the approach to use a

crowdfunding platform and that was

Kickstarter is that right that's right

and it sounds like that also brought

more interest from a wider audience yeah

absolutely just sort of quickly

what sort of proportion of your budget

were you able to sort of raise from that

was it a significant amount of well

you're more interested in the

promotional aspect of it it was more the

promotional aspect it was it was for one

specific scene that we raised the money

and and then to really build that

audience to help us now when we're about

to go out into cinemas and so on so yes

I was going to ask you how important

getting the right talent attached to

project is but it sounds like that's

kind of fundamental to the success of

this particular movie yeah I mean I

think budgeting your film at at the

right level for the kind of talent also

that you need planning to be working

with so with with writers and directors

if you're working with first-timers

unless they have the backing of you know

a broadcaster or friends who are a less

stars you probably want to keep your

budgets reasonably low because of the

talent that they can attract and in

terms of the acting talent I mean we

were just incredibly lucky to find an

amazing cast who performed way above

what anyone's expectations maybe should

have been for a low-budget film but but

yeah talent is important with my new

film we are you know having to attach

talent that can attract the finance that

can then set the whole sort of ship

going if you like that Ally and

everybody else here will be experienced

with so Paul in just to move on to you

in terms of the work that you do with

film can we in Wales

I mean talent is one of the things that

you support strongly what are the kind

of decision what is the decision process

really around discretionary funding you

know how does it produce to go about

getting hold of that you know are there

differences between what you're doing

Wales as compared to what other regions

of the UK are yeah I mean I think each

public fund works differently indistinct

distinctly and we do co-financed quite

often with other public funding we've Co

fund it with the Irish Film Board

creative England creative Scotland

Danish Film Institute film have asked

BFI name of this a lot of public funds

that will Co fund within the UK

beyond for us we very much look to

nurture Welsh talent whether that's

Welsh born or Welsh resident talent and

particularly writers directors producers

production companies and so we

prioritize projects that come through

that have one or more of those elements

in the mix we do occasionally look at

projects that don't have an element like

that

so Submarine for example didn't have any

of those elements but clearly it's a

very Welsh project - it's a adaptor from

a Welsh book we put a trainee Welsh

producer on it because it happened I'm

really kind of looked at that as a

strategic opportunity and also Dark

Horse is another project in fact those

are the only two out of the 50 films

that we've done so far that haven't had

Walsh writers directors or producers

attached but we're quite flexible in

other respects so as long as the film

can qualify as British I refer the

cultural test or any of the treaties for

the European Convention you can shoot

your film anywhere and it can be about

anything and doesn't have to be

culturally identifiably Welsh and

clearly other public funds will not

necessarily take that view but it means

that our fund is very flexible to be

able to go finance with the other

projects as a saying Ireland and lot

Sweden Australia New Zealand all over

the place and about a third of our

projects have been European

co-productions

so we try and find ways to be flexible

in that respect and from the

discretionary point of view we're

looking at the quality of the project

the viability of the project and how it

kind of fits the market what it's trying

to do so we might do small projects of a

quarter of a million up to about eight

million pounds could follow on from that

he talks about the shows co-producing

and shooting more widely throughout

Europe is there an emphasis on

maximizing tax credits and tax relief

and those instances or is that in terms

of the finance side or is it more a

creative input by creative decisions

yeah I mean I would always advise not

anyway I think if you if

you put your project together being

driven first by them money then that's

probably not the right way to go about

it I mean sometimes you're if you're

looking for the final piece you might

start to do that particularly around

things like post-production if there's

flexibility but I think if you start

with creatively what makes sense for

your project you know we've worked with

Spanish directors for example and then

it made sense to do a Spanish

co-production in the particular

circumstance then I think that's always

a good strategy Thank You Nick just to

sort of expand on that another area of

Finance is pre-sales in your work in

film is that something that user you

successfully in your finance strategy or

essential that you have some pre-sales

because I think you you've got to

illustrate that whatever film or idea it

is that you're putting together this is

past a certain limit I think it's

different to Cassandra's experience if

you if you're making a film for millions

of pounds or millions of dollars even if

you don't have pre-sales you'll need a

sales agent who is prepared to put

figures and numbers next to what he

believes what he or she believes that

that project will attract

internationally and you can't make film

without it so you have to have that at

least ideally if I was putting together

a film project at the moment you'd want

to have a couple of mm-hmm

a couple of big territories pre-sold so

that you could show that it had real

value and then you'd want to have good

estimates from the best sales agent that

you can find for the rest of the world

because then you're going to want to be

getting banking or GAAP finance based

upon those figures so if you don't have

that I think in it's a it's a more

seriously budgeted or significantly

budgeted film with actors in it that are

going to cost you some money you're

gonna find it very difficult to make a

film without it so yes it's essential

there's a lot being talked about at

moment a video-on-demand Netflix Amazon

Prime and so on and possibly that being

another source of potential pre-sales

for producers yeah I think I mean I

think absolutely the the landscape is

changing there's no question about it

and Netflix and what they're doing is

very interesting there are a lot of

people standing up in

can shouting about it going on oh

they're gonna ruin the industry look the

fact is that the business is changing we

saw it happen with the music industry

you know not that long ago and it's

gonna be the same for the film business

and we've got to move with the times

obviously Netflix are trying to define

at this moment in time what they get for

their money and maybe redefine the terms

of what we've all believed to be the way

that it functions and that could well

happen but I don't think any of us have

had enough experience certainly on the

the Netflix or Amazon side of things

when it comes to feature film financing

I heard the Brad Pitt recently got a 60

million dollar picture picked up

entirely and budgeted and financed

entirely by Netflix which wasn't picked

up by any of the studios and I think

that's really interesting news so surely

we have to keep a very very keen eye on

how it's going to develop but within

television you know there there's a mag

you know a huge force going on there and

we really have to take notice of it and

also the competitive nature of it I

think it's very healthy Amazon Google

you know Netflix they're all competing

for the same talent thank you just to

move on to another area of Finance that

some people producers may not always

consider but Chris could you explain how

they might benefit from product

placement and brand integration and

maybe explain what the difference

between those two offices yeah of course

um I mean first I'd say that never use

product placement as your so for I'm a

financing unless you're more than

Spurlock or someone like that and I mean

there are I think a lot of people look

at product placement and brand

integration which I'll come onto in a

second as maybe something that that's

not because they're unfamiliar with it

might not be the first thing that would

pop into the head but it can actually be

a very very useful tool and as part of

that that financing model and the main

differences that you come across between

product placement and brand integration

product placement is it's really seen in

three separate ways one is on a variable

basis one's on a visual and the third is

on signage and you tend to do deals with

brands who are looking for a degree of

exposure within a particular project but

generally it's not always the case but

generally that's that's an unpaid

partnership and so there's a mutual

benefit from both sides the production

get a specific product which may go

against their bottom line and the brand

get a

degree of exposure whether it's minutes

or in a particular scene that's quite

important within the film so everyone

walks are we happy from from that

particular possession and it's that it's

done very very well but by a number of

different number of different studios

and and then dependent producers as well

and from a brand integration perspective

this is where you can get a little bit

more creative and you can start to kind

of intertwine the brand within the story

so where the story can potentially be as

sorry the brand can potentially become a

character in itself so I'm thinking

something like the Audi r8 and the Iron

Man series which has become 20 starts

car somewhat centered dealership you

want to drive 20 starts car or even

going back to the late 90s to see the

matrix the Nokia phone and this is a

plug but it's such an iconic brand that

was the place in that film that I think

it was certainly it had a huge spike in

sales poster and I mean what stage in

kind of putting together a project

should have produced to be considering

this should they and when would they

come and talk to someone like yourself

is it there um well I think I think it

should always be in depending on the

size of film and I to my colleagues are

purely reserved identifying that it's

not always about the cash it's not

always about the investment side the

creative still has to be paramount to

any project but I would say that

producer always needs to be thinking

about that bottom line whether it's

getting free product whether it's being

able to commercialize something else

that they have within the film so they

would probably be approaching a company

like I was about three to six months

prior to filming taking place so that we

have a good run to be able to create

those opportunities we're gonna move on

now and take a look a little bit in more

detail at high-end television and how

that whole model of finance compares

with the independent film finance model

as a bit of a kind of background to that

in the UK the introduction of the

high-end TV tax relief has actually

helped push the amount spent on

qualifying production up to six hundred

and fifteen million in 2014 I'm quoting

the BFI statistics again we're seeing

new sources of funding coming into play

with Netflix and Amazon we've talked

about and possibly disrupting under the

studio system for film and ten

bypassing the standard distribution

channel for television Nick you've gone

down a relatively standard route in

terms of what we've seen on on the

screen at home but perhaps you could

explain to us with a high end drama like

Jonathan strange and Mr Norrell what

pieces need to fall into place and how

you kind of went about structuring that

particular project

sure well the the landscape I think over

the last 10 years has changed

dramatically for financing high-end

drama and I think that you know in the

past what would happen is that you would

be corner stoned your investment that

your financing would be Cornerstone with

the broadcaster they give you an amount

that is set by the tariffs as a as a

license fee for your show and then what

most producers would do is they would go

off and they would attract a sales

company to maybe stump up another ten or

fifteen percent or whatever it was and

they'd have to go off and make the show

for that amount of money the reality now

is that the appetite for television is

for shows that cost a lot more than they

used to cost yet the tariff amounts have

not escalated to pick up that slack so

instead what's happened is that the

producer has had to utilize independent

film funding skill to come along and

really double the amount at least of

what the of what the network is prepared

to give you and so with that in mind I

found myself moving from having put

together independent films and then

doing a sort of independent film and

television fusion into doing something

that was like Jonathan strange which is

a classic television series that require

a lot of thought that I would normally

have associated with independent film

financing so we had to bring in a number

of different partners we some people

have said to me it's the most

complicated Fayette's implant they've

ever seen there's a circuit diagram

available to be seen by anybody that

wants to see it but what we ended up

doing is bringing in a number of

partners and and and the thing is I

think the thing to say about financing

is that you never really sure there's

this sort of sense well we're gonna sit

down and write a plan and then we gonna

go and find all the pieces that fit

together well it doesn't ever really

work like that it's all good it's just

as organic as developing a show in a

sense you know one of the things that I

thought straight off the bat was well

America's a big place they've got loads

of dosh and we should go there because

you're seeing the cable shows are really

having great success over there Downton

was doing very well this is a long time

ago it's like three years ago when I

started going around looking for cash

and I should say I was not the only

person who put the financing together on

this I had a couple of people who work

with me very closely Justin Thompson

Glover and Patrick Irwin who are bloody

brilliant and the whole thing can I use

bloody I said it twice so so the point

with that is that we did go to America

first and I did go and pitch it round

Netflix and Showtime and HBO and all of

those sorts of places and I've got a

pretty lackluster response even though

it was best-selling book I think that

everybody felt well this is very British

they've all been entrusted to make more

american-style shows and so we didn't

have anybody effectively really chomping

at the bit at that point and so we

realized at that point because it could

have been very straightforward it could

have been a UK broadcaster with a bit of

maybe tax money and a sales company and

North America and that could have done

all the financing and kept it very

simple the reality was that America

didn't come in for a large chunk and so

we realized we'd have to find that large

chunk somewhere else and the decision

was to do a Canadian UK co-production

which netted us you know tax money in

Canada it also increases the sale that

you can get from with a Canadian

broadcaster so all of those things

combined meant that I was getting Canada

together with the UK and then a whole

load of other parties as well on top of

that plus the complication that it was

co-production which always makes things

a little bit difficult when you say

discretionary what do you actually mean

I'm thinking we talked about it before

so I'll give it away we're talking about

screen York shares would they get

involved yes they did and and they were

brilliant and I'm they have no choice I

had a choice but but it was an

interesting journey to go on and you

know they don't have stacks of money

they have a good amount of money but

it's it's usually cut off between a few

projects but yes screen Yorkshire were

involved and Demong came on board

or international sales ingenious were

involved from an equity point of view

and tax money as well and there were

some other people I'm probably going to

really upset them I'm not mentioning

them but there were a lot of people as

the last question is very quickly I'll

just say did you use a completion

guarantee on the did you need to I guess

a question oh it's one of the great

things about television is certainly

it's not standard to have a completion

guarantee but I think we were talking

before this and Allie can a lucid a more

on this is that with some of the bigger

American shows where they're really

getting very very large sums of money I

think that they're starting to require

it more and more but it's it's a great

thing to not have if you can get away

with it so I don't know not to say that

it's been very useful over the years

I've done films I've had you know I

haven't worked with film fighters as

I've where I work with IFG before they

closed and and have very good

experiences with them and it worked

really really well but I think in

television I don't know I don't know how

it would work but I'm sure it does

that's a my question to you in terms of

like what you're seeing and whether you

know in the high high-end it is and it's

all to do with risk and the risk gets

bigger when budgets get bigger and there

are new relationships and new finance

years and new producers and as you said

the appetite is so big for television

production that you're getting lots of

new relationships emerge between those

characters so it just increases the risk

somewhat so that means that they are

more likely to want someone like us

who's guaranteeing that they're going to

get their product at the end of it which

is also essentially what we do for

anybody who doesn't know yes that's the

reason the risk the risk is the risk is

big and I think as people who have been

involved in independent film ie equity

players or discretionary funds or

whoever it may be move into the

television space they'll want to move

into it with the comfort that they've

had in the previous realm of financing

and so I was constantly sort of trying

to keep quiet about it

that nobody would bring it up thankfully

nobody did but you know screen Yorkshire

should be asking and and and the bank

although you know ingenious were

effectively being the bank they should

be asking but they weren't so it's not

just the well I suppose the budgets are

connected bonded films tend to be over a

million pounds more or less and

television production was probably below

a million for an hour or a couple of

hours and now that's changing you're

getting things of it over two million

three million I suppose as you get into

the high-end Netflix Amazon type content

so this is the process similar I mean if

you're going through the process is

actually bombs yeah mostly similar apart

from the fact that television is we're

coming to terms with with with this big

difference that it has and that it's

written as it goes along somewhat and

that means that with a sphere with a

script you have a script and you and you

you make sure that it's done with it

with what you do and you have a

television series that has they're not

always first of all upfront some of the

Martin's a month so the key for us is

that is they have scripts and if not to

somehow marry that up with with

guaranteeing something that you don't

subscribe Chris I'll jump back back to

you now in terms of product placement we

see it a lot on on US television in

particular what sort of value might be

you know be able to bring to to high-end

drama and and you know how again can you

access that if you were looking to do

that well I think it's got to be very

clear that it's really only commercial

channels that would actually use that as

a additional source of revenue and to be

honest if you're looking at the US model

the they live and die by that because

they're able to sell ad dollars around

it which is kind of locked in with with

product placement as well so I mean it's

been for the past 60 years or 70 years

probably even longer actually brands

have been investing and sponsoring

soaps that's where soaps actually soap

operas came from it was the soap and

detergent companies that used to

actually sponsor those shows it's a

common phrase that we use nowadays and I

think the UK is slowly moving towards

that but I think we still have very much

perception of we don't want brands kind

of anywhere near our shoes and we have

this so maybe it's a very British thing

I don't know but it's it's off come here

the regulator's in the UK changed the

law in 2011

whether you're now allowed to have

product placement and commercial based

shoes or commercial based channels but

still it's it's only really in the

background that's no-one's really kind

of taking full advantage of that but

again it's a stone two brands maybe and

their agencies advising them that that's

maybe not the right audience for you can

have has to be much about brand fit but

then you you look at platforms like

amazon prime and netflix and hulu

they're all fantastic opportunities for

brands to get involved because there are

no advertising mediums on those

platforms so Prada placement and brand

integration becomes so much more

important to gain access into that

audience because whether all of us binge

on Breaking Bad or transparent and you

might watch ten shows and one setting or

two settings and so you're you're really

captured by that particular story and

that's where brands I think can have a

much more much more relevant rule and

that kind of creation of content in

terms of generating interest in the show

itself

I guess that brands will partner with

the production company and yeah it

depends I mean that's all done to rights

to be perfectly honest it's much more

prevalent in movies than as an

intelligent because you have a series

that can run for six months on some

networks or some channels and for a

brand to continuously promote that

particular sure unless it's a

sponsorship and becomes quite

challenging for them on a budget side

Cassandra come back to you you've heard

a little bit about this television world

and your next show is going to be a

bigger budget and so do you see any

similarities with a sort of high-end

television model and what you might do

on your next project and I think yeah I

think particularly what Nick was saying

about

together lots of different sources of

finance that's what I'm doing at the

moment on a bigger budget project film

so I I do think there's sounds like

there are more similarities between

television drama and and independent

film than I'd hoped because I was kind

of thinking I might ask you for a job so

say yeah similarities and the same

obviously with the product placement and

brand integration you know that kind of

has done very well in film and and

obviously it's doing so in in television

as well would it be difficult for you as

a producer to incorporate that

creatively I mean depending on how you

work and how you work with your well I

think I mean I I have another company

where I do clearances and product

placement so I I certainly notice that

with film you know again a little bit

like I was talking about you know

protecting the creative vision of the

directors I'm working with I think there

is also that sense within bigger films

that you know you don't want to force

your director to use the particular

product just because they've said

they'll give you you know 50 grand

although sometimes you do want to do

that depending on on the type of

material that you're working on and you

know if it's period then it's harder to

place those products then if it's modern

days fallene

just to sort of cap it off really in

terms of discretionary funds are they

available for television production non

theatrical release and and you know with

with your own programs in Wales are you

able to support that kind of endeavor

we don't do television as a standalone

but we will look at other forms of ip

around a film proposition and we do that

routinely so every development

proposition every production proposition

that comes in to us and it's relatively

new we've been testing you over the last

18 months or so will look at

all sorts of IP that might spin off of

that whether it's a game or a

publication or a TV adaptation to stage

adaptation but Pinewood Wales

does do television as much as they do

film so there's there's other funds

their screen Yorkshire she mentioned

earlier but it tends to obviously start

with commissioners really in the UK

I mean you've talked about going into

other areas intellectual property and

that's one evolution any other that's

going on out there and then what in

terms of trends more generally they're

also generally I think in terms of just

supporting the bigger picture whether

there's in developing talent I mean I

think there's various trends I'd say one

of them is that we're seeing it's harder

and I think this is partly because it's

so good on television at the moment to

get straight drama from a theatrical

film point of view off the ground and so

we've seen more reforms of genre more

and also Docs and animation so probably

a strengthening in that area more

pre-sales available but I think really

the importance and we try and do this

wherever we can really great market

materials particularly if you've got

something where you can show concept art

pilot scenes tone the interaction

chemistry of key characters and can make

a huge difference and we found you know

even investing mostly smaller amounts of

money like sort of 20k 25k can really

help a sales agent secure pre-sales can

get equity comfortable can get sales

agents comfortable and could be a real

driver to closing your finance so seeing

a lot of that it's quite powerful tool I

just want to remind everybody who's

watching at home that if you are

watching you can post your questions on

YouTube in the comments box below the

video player and also you can tweet us

not PG raise raising finance that's all

one word we're gonna move to some

questions I think from the audience now

and then I'll come back to you all for a

perhaps or sort of hint or tip that you

might offer so if you want to give a

little bit of thought to what you might

advise the next generation of produce

so to consider when raising their

finance so maybe if we could case the

audience so I'll repeat that from

YouTube if you don't have contact with

private investors how would you go about

finding private equity and raising

finance in that way so maybe Cassandra I

think the thing really is to is to try

and find those people well I think I

have phase absolutely and and it's all

actually I'd say our business is so much

about networking and getting yourself

out there and you just especially if

you're making something if you're fairly

new and you're making something and you

don't have a lot of you know contacts

and the industry a get to know the

industry because you know if they can

back you then that is an amazing thing

but but also you know you at a dinner

party mention it to you know your

parents your friends you never know who

suddenly turns around goes oh I've

always wanted to get involved in film

and I've got ten thousand twenty

thousand to play with oh I know somebody

so you start with friends and family

here many why not friends and family or

as they the model in in the States used

to be in the seventies dentists and

doctors they remain I'd say that's

that's a good way to start I'd also

think about you don't necessarily have

to go off and find those people

individually I think that there are a

number of good organizations out there

whose names I won't mention directly

here but there are organizations that

will go and find that money and raise

those funds for you and are specializing

and putting equity into those projects

so find out who those companies are and

go and speak to them and I think that

you can also look at film credits and

and things like that just to see who

were the sorts of companies that are

involved on a regular basis on the sorts

of films that you might be making that

a really good idea and then the third

thing I would recommend is get yourself

a good lawyer

film lawyer media lawyer because you

know you don't have to spend a lot of

money upfront but they will have seen a

lot of deals going through and they

might be able to point you in the

direction of one or two or three people

and every time you have a meeting with

somebody who you think is on the right

track

make sure that you get three extra names

out of it that was a rule I've always

used and spidering out your contacts all

the time you can start with IMDB which

is a pretty good place to go for kind of

internet provider I mean is really about

research look at films that you think of

good comparables from a budget point of

view from from a look from how how

advanced the director is etc and then

look at who sold us all those films and

then around can without having to go to

the market and we'll call genre specific

markets like Fantasia is a good one to

look at have a look at the kind of

product brochures the trade magazines

they would they're all promoting they'll

all show you the the main sales agents

at the market and see what they're

selling and there are other markets

other than just cat and I mean I mean

Cannes good because it's sunny great one

it's a lot it's it's quite close and you

can go there and quite quickly everybody

sort of sets out their wares in quite an

easy way and that is really the best way

to find a sales agent is to go to a

sales market and really sort of go

around look at the sales materials as

you say I have a question for a budding

producer and finding talent I mean we

talked about how critical it is to get

the right people involved in your

project the money is almost secondary if

you haven't got the project where do you

you know is there a similar approach to

going up are you do

I would say teller from the writing

point writing and directing and the

development phase and and obviously I

mean casting is a key element of going

out raising finance like imagine that

well it's not easy around bush but

you've you know a lot of people might

have developed relationships if they

were at film school for example with

somebody who was a budding writer or

they may know somebody and that's how

sort of I certainly quite a lot of stuff

I was doing early on was working with

people like that

but make sure I think we've all said

producing is about networking you've got

to get out there you've got to meet

people because if you don't you won't be

a producer it's as simple as that and so

make sure that you target the right

people get to know a couple of agents or

even junior agents in agencies I've sort

of grown up in the industry with certain

people who've started at a junior level

and they're now much more senior within

all the leading agents in London we've

got a wonderful thing in England is that

we've got fantastic talent we've got

great writing talent and they don't

charge the same prices as America which

is brilliant so you want to use that to

your advantage and get to know those

people there are only about five six

real leading agencies and literally

everybody's with one of those which also

makes it a lot easier ally just to you

quickly do you see the same people

working as teams coming to you and is

there less risk from your perspective

when you see that kind of combination of

producer director this ya know no

quantity is is less risk but what do you

mean by the same do people tend to stick

together in the process and do you find

that really a decision to make in terms

of getting involved in a project when

you've worked a the whole combinational

it's too difficult say I think they do

when it's when it works and when it

doesn't then they never see each other

again so it's certainly for us it helps

to it's all about the team and the

people if you know them anew if you

you're dealing with the director who you

have or producer whose work you're

familiar with and whose behavior you're

familiar with then it helps to assess a

project which is what we do first

do we always see repeating teams

sometimes could you just repeat yeah so

the question was about crowdfunding and

whether the fact that it's labor

intensive and a lot of work to do

whether that's if it's worth it um I

would say yes it is but probably as with

nearly every other source of finance and

any other endeavor you pursue you need

to evaluate what your project is and who

your audience are and whether they would

be the kinds of people who would be

supporting a crowdfunding campaign so

for example I was talking to a director

who was doing a film on a Elvis

impersonator and there are lots of Elvis

fan clubs out there and Elvis

impersonator fan clubs out there but a

lot of those fans are older and haven't

kind of adopted using online payment

systems and so they were expecting a

huge pickup in their Kickstarter

campaign when in fact they found that

hardly anybody in fact none of these

people that they'd been courting for

four months and building this audience

offline wanted to put their credit card

details online basically so but but the

other thing I would say with a

crowdsourcing campaign if you're a

producer you are already busy raising

the rest of your finance or you're in

production or you in pre-production

doing the casting heads of department

whatever it is that you're doing and I

would really recommend finding somebody

who can run your crowdfunding campaign

and allow yourself lots of time to plan

because the more time you prep the

better the results

it's really important as well I mean how

much and you can potentially raise them

what proportion that might be of your

end budget if it's 2% it's probably not

worth the time but if it becomes 15 or

20 percent then it really is worth the

effort I mean amount of effort that you

put into getting other bits of Finance I

can't imagine it's much harder no no so

the follow-on question was whether it's

worth it from an audience building

perspective I think the the answer to

that is yes but again it depends how

successful your campaign has been sales

agents and distributors are certainly

interested to know whether there is

already a fan base I mean if you've got

whether it be a crowdfunding campaign or

you've had a really great Twitter build

up during production and so on or if

you've got a great Facebook page that

you know who's getting a thousands of

likes all of that helps but at the end

of the day it's always going to be down

to the product I think with I think

there is a new model coming basically

which is that your crowdfunding can

actually be pretty much the the ticket

buying process for an audience so you

know you could sort of offer once the

film is done you'll be the first to see

it and you'll get an online screen a

link or whatever the thing is you know

and it will be a way of bringing the

cinema into your front room for example

I think there's definitely a movement

towards that particularly at the sort of

micro budget and the lower budget very

indie sort of market but but yeah I mean

I in our case having ambassadors who

will you know tweet about us and we'll

follow through in terms of what's

happening with the film and encourage

their friends to support the film that

has been very helpful

I don't think it's why our sales agent

chose us did you did you give out copies

as it were the product to the people

that supported you or was it slightly

more creative sometimes what you're

offering and we offered I mean you know

I sort of said that there is a dead a

dead girlfriend in it with him who's

bloody and broken and so we had we had

blood print mugs that were very popular

we had even blood print pillowcases

randomly somebody bought them but were

there a little bit strange but yes

actually they were very popular so so we

haven't given that the film yet but

that's also partly because we're still

in the festival so we premiered at South

by Southwest in America in March and

we've got a festival coming up in the UK

soon and in other markets so we're not

quite at the stage where we will be

sharing the film digitally with people

but it's not far off and we will be

giving copies which portal did you use

to raise the money was in American

portal or a UK poor Kickstarter it was

Kickstarter yeah so when it's American

put it and but it launched in the UK

just before we there were different

financial rulings are there not between

the UK and America with regards to not

with regards to this kind of fundraising

I think if it's equity investment if

okay so yeah forget it now just to say

that if you've committed to giving out

copies of the film have you sort of

undercut the market you would have to be

extremely lucky to have I I hope to have

found that many investors on Kickstarter

who would be buying a copy of your film

to have completely depleted the rest of

your

sort of route to to money and if that's

the case then maybe that was your only

source of finance or needed to be your

only source of finance so no I mean if

you're talking about between five

hundred and a thousand backers you know

unless your film really isn't very good

I hope you have more than five hundred

or a thousand viewers so the thing that

I would say what I've noticed I've never

done it myself but what's interesting is

the rules do seem to be changing because

as I'm sure everybody's aware if you're

doing a Kickstarter campaign you have to

be effectively giving them something in

return for the money

ie blood-stained mugs or pillowcases

very creative mmm excellent so that's

all great but I think what's really

interesting and I was talking to

IndieGoGo just a few months ago in can

about the fact that their rulings they

anticipate them changing quite soon in

the states where one can actually raise

physical equity in a film and therefore

would be getting some back end

participation as opposed to Kickstarter

where you're selling something and

that's what they get and they get the

excitement of being involved in the film

and I think that that has the potential

to change the landscape of crowdfunding

where the amount of money that you might

have raised from say a discretionary

fund could come from you know an equity

investment plan there are other

platforms not Kickstarter IndieGoGo that

are already do and that's not just film

but also for other for other products

and so on right yeah we might wrap it up

there misses one last question from the

from the room if anybody has anything

yeah I've been through that I also

happen to co-owned a visual effects

company called milk that does all have

Doctor Who and and did all of Jonathan

strange & Mr Norrell

and so I've analyzed it in quite some

detail the I don't want to put the the

dampeners on it because it can work out

to be really really useful I mean it's

if you're if you're making a film and

need that last piece and one of the

companies out there that can do equity

investment alongside providing new

services in kind is very very useful but

my general feeling is I always want to

have the flexibility to go to the place

that I want to do the post because there

are certain places that do something but

I really want out of them or it's the

personnel so I want that flexibility and

I'm always a little concerned that what

I'm doing is effectively trading an

inflated cost for an equity investment

as opposed to just getting a really damn

good deal and going wherever I want to

go so that's my experience of it thank

you all very much just gonna wrap things

up by going back down and asking each of

you for that one key piece of advice

you'd give to a producer that they

should factor into their strategy for

film or television financing think they

I would say don't underestimate how long

it can take to close your financing even

though you think you have your financing

you will probably need to make some

arrangement for cash flow in your

pre-production because you wouldn't very

rarely be able to close your financing

before you have done a certain amount of

work not just to do with production but

also to do with the finances and the

legals and lots of other things and

people only really start paying

attention when that pre-production

period starts so don't underestimate how

long that takes and and have a plan for

how to get you through it to further

than you probably think you need to

initially stuff that we see I think my

top tip would be stay flexible and

basically roll with the punches

and I think it's kind of sex with bob

and weave like a boxer I think it's a

bit what nick said earlier as well it's

you know you've got to be prepared that

your finance might come from completely

different sources to where you were

expecting it at the beginning of the

process so stay flexible also I mean

these things take such a long time to

develop that always having very rounded

conversations whether it's with your

I learned about stuff that might come up

at the future you know something that

might just come from out of the blue

that you weren't expecting and you go

off in a different direction end up

doing a different project first but also

really think through what the value is

in your project and it isn't necessarily

just about the film how can you extend

that value do you need to reserve some

rights to protect that can you create a

sort of an extra equity space for

yourself you spend a lot of time doing

it so I think trying to really get as

much value out of it as you can is

really important my tip is make sure

you've got bloody good idea I mean all

the financing mumbo-jumbo we can talk

till the cows come home but if you

haven't got something fantastic it's a

bit of a waste of time and I do see a

lot of people I know that sounds rather

trite and simple to say but you see a

lot of people go I've got this great

story about a guy who works in a chip

shop you know it's really exciting he

sees his mum in the evening and you kind

of can look nobody's gonna watch it so

and they'll spend four years sort of

like plowing right and then ultimately

sort of admit defeat and say it was

somebody else's fault but the fact is

make your project irresistible because

it's really competitive out there there

are people out there who are gonna do

whatever they can to get something

financed and the single most important

thing is that you've got a project and a

package and a collection of people that

people look at and go bloody how I

really want to see that and that's my

biggest tip to any producer out there

because if you've got a brilliant

project you can hire somebody else to

finance it my tip would be if you are

interested in the product placement or a

brand integration site then get yourself

a one-pager and on that one page or you

should includes a very very brief

synopsis I'm talking a paragraph you

should include who the key principles

are so director producer writer any cast

that you've actually tried to approach

or indeed locked in and then come up

with a very simple concept of how you

would want to work with that brand

brands aren't difficult people to work

with they just want interesting ideas

from creative people film and TV is a

very aspirational area for brands to get

involved and everyone's very very keen

to do that that's just finding the right

vehicle to be able to do that

great well thank you very much to the

panel it was a fantastic discussion on

truth all the grease everything give

them a round of applause thank you thank

you

thank you all for coming and thank you

to everybody who's been watching online

I just like to thank our sponsors again

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