Accurate Medical TV Shows with Medical TV Consultant Dr. Oren Gottfried

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[Music]

[Applause]

hello welcome to knock knock high with

the glockens I am your host will

Flannery also known as Dr Clark

conflagan and I am also your host

Kristen Flannery also known as Lady Gaga

how's everybody doing how are you doing

I'm doing good how are you doing did you

have you noticed um I I put a new a

little prop yes I did notice background

here sadly I did not notice until we

were already recording and so there was

nothing I could do about it yes yes so

every so often you know I I came up with

these like silly little visual gags in

my videos like either like it's a the

mission statement for Aetna that just

says be evil uh that I'll you know put

in like a frame and and put it somewhere

and then Kristen finds it like oh later

because we're like in our in our laundry

room above the door and I can't reach it

which is why it's still there there's a

sign you've even forgotten you put that

there oh oh the um Ortho Correctional

something oh yeah that was when it was

Ortho uh I forgot with how I worded it

but basically it was like a timeout room

that radio the radiologist uh made the

orthopedic surgeon go to because he kept

not providing clinical history on his

Imaging orders and I don't know how many

months ago you filmed that video and

that sign is still hanging there above

our laundry room yeah I put it up there

pretty high up

okay I'll I'll go remove it until I

forget that I told you I would remove it

and then I don't remove it oh it always

goes but we do have I just uh posted a

video

um I introduced the Interventional

radiologist speaking of radiology

and I did a little like visual gag where

I like photoshopped us in front of the

Eiffel Tower of me wearing my makeshift

lead which is actually like bath towels

different color and I put it in a frame

uh so that I could like you know feature

it in the video and I put it on our

background here so you could see it the

whole episode if you're watching this on

YouTube

so go if you're if you're interested in

seeing that and some of our other props

we got a I got my our Nephrology water

bottle there uh the Jonathan prayer

candle uh uh and and I don't know I've

got some other stuff I I'm very

intentional about my decorating and so

when you say you like to put things

there to surprise me yeah you like it

it's like a little gift yeah it's so fun

I I like it when I have everything

just the way I want it all meaningful

and in a purposeful place and I mean it

just changes randomly I love it I could

exchange it with a a framed photo of of

the orthopedic surgeon if you'd like

we already have a framed photo of it was

delicious it was the neurologist right

there you covered up the neurologist oh

no no the neurologist is down further

below oh well that was Jonathan see

you're moving all my stuff you're just

moving everything uh I got all sorts of

Easter eggs back here everything placed

back here is Meaningful in one way or

another so there's a little even the

treasure hunt for people yeah even the

plant yeah

um all right well should we talk about

our guest yes I think I'm excited

because it's a nervous surgeon I was a

little bit nervous just for on my own

um side of things just because to talk

to a neurosurgeon because because

they're much smarter than you well

that's that's absolutely true but also I

make fun of neurosurgeons a lot on

social media and that's true but but all

in good fun all good totally and and he

loved it he loved the videos yeah that's

the thing which I talk about with

surgeons is they they can for the most

part all laugh at themselves and I

appreciate people that have a good sense

of humor and can engage in a little

self-deprecation from time to time it's

a lovely quality to have as a physician

as anybody really but our guest is Dr

Oren Gottfried he is the professor of

neurosurgery and Orthopedics and

clinical Vice chair in the department of

neurosurgery at Duke it's an interesting

combo and before we talk to him I was

like how do you become you know where do

neurosurgery and Orthopedics overlap to

me but exactly the spine yeah discovered

that because I know like orthopedic

surgeons and neurosurgeons both do like

some of the same spinal work did they

fight over it I don't know good question

or maybe a video for you they come like

kind of like both like he does I don't

know uh and uh they did train in both

but uh yes he did a neurosurgery

residency and then two separate

Fellowship that's right one in spinal

oncology and one in a spinal deformity

orthopedic surgery yep and so a very uh

educated well-educated and accomplished

individual in addition to all the

academic things he does in neurosurgery

including like numerous research or

Publications he's also a lead TV medical

consultant yes that was really

interesting you talked to him about how

all that works so if you've ever had

questions about if you've thrown the

remote at your television yeah about how

your favorite show uh you know came up

with some medical thing or did something

he talks a little bit about that he

talks about how he got started in uh

Consulting for medical TV show Siberia

is involved a little bit we talked to

all kinds of different things yeah but

um very fast fascinating look into the

world of medical entertainment yes so as

someone who dabbles in enter trying to

entertain people in medicine ways I

really thoroughly enjoyed it so let's

talk uh let's get into it shall we

actually I stopped just listening to

myself talk and actually talk to our

guest yep yep here we go Dr Oren Godfrey

foreign

we are here today with Dr Oren Gottfried

Dr Gottfried can we call you Oren is

that okay

please do all right it's so good uh to

to get a chance to talk with you I first

uh um found out about you on Twitter

you've got a pretty sizable Twitter

following always posting interesting

videos some of which I I can I show

Kristen and um uh they're very medically

related some surgical videos and as

someone who's not in in medicine

um you know I can kind of uh I enjoy

seeing her reaction to some of the

content you post which is always fun it

never ceases to amaze me how you guys

get used to some of these things

laughs it gets me in trouble little

because I'm so used to things that I

have to use my 10 year old as a radar

you know I'll have the 10 year old see

it and she's like no I don't want to see

that I'm like okay right what is it what

so what does your 10 year old think of

your job uh as a neurosurgeon I think

she is respectful of that um just to

give a comparison once I helped on a

video game and that was like much cooler

for her for sure but but the part that I

get to help brains they she thinks it's

pretty cool but yeah I don't have as

much credibility as with that video game

had oh right that makes sense that means

you're doing it right if if your

children think that you know you have

absolutely no street cred other than

things like video games then I think

you're you're doing just fine as a

parent now you have you have a very uh

an interesting background and just what

you do not only on the neurosurgery side

but also as a medical consultant on TV

because every everybody in medicine

watching these videos is always like at

some point thought to themselves like

you know who's who's Consulting on this

man on this show or who's coming up with

this who's letting them you know barely

press on the chest during chest

compressions you know that's not the way

it's supposed to be so I wanna I wanna

get to that side of things here in a

little bit but first

um I have a question just about

neurosurgery now you're hopefully you're

aware of some of the videos that I make

about neurosurgeons yes I love them so

yeah my question like what did I get

right what do I need to do better do you

have notes do you have notes for me

I do

I think that you you get it all right

and the way I look at it if we can't as

a community look at how things were

wrong in the past and laugh at them then

we're then we're the ones

yeah and so I think that for anyone

that's been met in medicine for some

time sees the historical element and we

all want to do better so I don't want

the comment you're nice for a

neurosurgeon that's a really mean

comment like for my nurse and it's like

haven't we tried to prove this you know

over and over and over again for the

last 30 years so I think you get

everything right yeah um I always worry

you know that your audience needs to be

as smart at interpreting things as you

know the average and someone that

accepts a little bit more from the

medicine

um but in general I get it and just so

you know I have checked and I think all

nurseries in spite it Bunny and the one

guy that did it we don't like him so

well I love it because and that's why I

love making videos uh that have surgical

sub-specialists or just surgeons in

general in them because you you always

have a good sense of humor like you

don't you don't take yourself like too

seriously that you can't laugh at

yourself which I as a as a

self-described comedian physician person

like I really appreciate that so thanks

for not uh you know being mad at me

I'm just never noticed you know it could

be that you just chose not to go about

neurosurgeons but the fact that we've

piqued your interest oh yeah we're part

of the dialogue that's good and now you

went to residency uh at the University

of Utah uh from 2001 to 2007. so what

was what was training like then and uh

comparing it to now

well you just mentioned where I trained

so I can't tell any of the real dirt but

let's pretend like you didn't admit to

where I trained

um it's remarkable

um I I have so many stories I have to

think which ones will get me in less

trouble but I think it's a time it's a

time period issue it's not neurosurgery

yeah it's not specific to my program it

just has to do with the the different

time I mean today it would be fair for a

doctor to say it's time to go home

um when I trained you wouldn't want to

mention the H word you know you would be

considered lazy right for saying oh for

wanting to go see your wife and kids for

wanting to have a life outside and now

in today's world I love to hear what my

residents I get to operate with I want

to hear what they're doing I mean I'm

living by terroristly through them

they're having the exciting life and

while they're a nursery resident where

when I was in training I was just a

resident I didn't have anything else

going on for a while until I realized

that's not right and so I enjoyed the

fact that it's different but I still

catch my myself saying you know I trade

before the ADR work and it's like I know

I can't say things like that but I

literally worked I had several weeks I

worked 140 yeah 130 I don't see how

that's possible yeah wait how many hours

are in a week it can't be more much more

than that that's uh because you're like

literally living at the hospital like

you were like a resident of the hospital

yeah I mean there was a shift where we

started Friday morning 5 a.m and it

ended on Monday night whenever we were

done rounded oh my God and so you lived

in the hospital for those days I mean I

you didn't get to go outside so I

started you know my day night cycle was

off I mean think about how it is when

you go to a movie theater and you step

out think about if you went to a

four-day move I mean it is so hard to

get your bearings right

to sneak out on the Monday Monday after

rounds at like 8 P.M I'd sneak out again

I couldn't say I was like um I'm going

to my other Hospital you're right

that's actually that's a really uh

that's really good comparison of going

to the movie

four straight days a really a really

scary movie yeah really

it's always amazed and baffled me that

the the very people who are learning

about what the body needs and how to

take care of the body and how to heal

the body are the ones that are

perpetuating this culture of doing

things that are horrible for the body

yeah fortunately it's a lot better now

yeah so much better I think we still

have a ways to go though like I mean it

has come a very long ways but I think

you know we're not we're not all the way

there yet but we're much farther well I

think also just in general physicians

are still really bad about caring for

themselves I mean that's and you know

irrespective of work or a number of

hours you're working we're just like

really bad at yeah so we tend to think

we know more about things than maybe we

should and don't take certain things

seriously my sense is you all are

thinking like well if you're not dying

then

that's it like those are the two options

you're you're fine or you're dying which

I think Oren I think uh you know toward

the end of a 130 hour shift I think you

probably physically were dying you were

slowly succumbing to your sleep

deprivation one please notice I mean I

got pulled over more than one chime

um I for whatever reason it was very

uncool and I still have my surgeon cap

on but I also

um when the police officer got to my

side and saw the surgeon's cap and

realized you know I wasn't wrong on

alcohol I was just yeah Fleet deprived

they always let me go so I mean just a

note at the time just having a surgical

cab eventually I was just on call I

didn't get any tickets they always let

me go but they were so worried about me

one of them like followed me home he

made sure my driving was effective

enough that I wasn't gonna hurt somebody

and got me safely to my home oh wow yeah

uh yeah I feel like when that is um the

case it's time to

to take a look at the system yeah so so

one of the one of the things that I I

like to make fun of about neurosurgeons

is that like I've never seen a

neurosurgery attending in fact you might

actually be the like one of the first

neurosurgery attendings actually I've

been to a neurosurgery conference but in

general you're you're kind of like

mythical creatures because like going

through residency because that as an

ophthalmologist and an Ophthalmology

resident I would cross paths with

neurosurgery most of it's like you

getting mad at me because I dilated

somebody's eyes

um but uh uh I I never did see the

attending neurosurgeon it's uh and so

whenever you get through residency and

You Begin now you're you you have an

academic career

um uh are you I mean it you exist I mean

I guess we can tell people like you do

actually exist but it is we know that

for sure though because he is in the

computer he could be AI do you actually

do you venture into the hospital even

with your your army of residence at your

disposal

yeah I mean I don't spend as much time

as they do

um my my um

where I'm seeing my locations being

tracked you know it's like when I'm

there people need to know you know how

many minutes away you know they're

following me real closely yeah but I

would say there's less loitering I as an

attendant refused to loiter Hospital

whereas it wasn't called loitering when

I was a resident it was called being a

resident right and so you basically were

required we would Lloyd around we'd stay

there until the attempting mate it's her

appearance yeah and then we know we were

C and then we could go so there was a

big element of let me be around the

hospital let let me be know that I'm at

the hospital and then it's an attending

you come in and do your job and you get

out you know it's just very intentional

yeah it's not as mythical but that's a

good point

and so at what point during your career

did this I want to get into the medical

consultant stuff now because that is

very interesting

tell me about how that started I guess

let's start there

yeah so I've been at it for about 13

years exactly the time period I've been

at Duke so I was a new hire on an

academic track for neurosurgery I was

just starting to see patients you know I

did not have a busy practice and granted

I'm in North Carolina my Administrative

Assistant gave me a little Post-it you

know that said Console Doctor in

California and um and I really thought

long and hard like I don't really want

to accept a transfer you know transfers

are always complex cases like why aren't

there any other hospitals between North

Carolina and California and I get on the

line and the nice doctor it actually is

a doctor it is a patient but he starts

telling me don't hang up on me please

don't take up hang up it's like every

other neurosurgeon I asked to help me

I've got one like okay you ready sound

pretty sad let me help you and he was

like I'm working on a pilot about a

neurosurgeon that's trying to cure his

wife his wife has some terminal illness

I need to know what that is how we Gonna

Save her and like this is kind of cool

you know I know yeah you know I know

Madison I know neurosurgery but I've

never thought creatively about

storytelling at that point and so I

helped him through that case

um the pilot never went anywhere but he

saw that I really enjoyed it and so one

thing led to another and I found myself

doing a lot of voluntary work for many

years but then eventually became the guy

you know the person for shows and I

regularly still do voluntary work where

shows can just follow me up for a one

episode question I actually embraced

that quite a bit because medical shows

are going to get a lot of things right

because they're working with a

consultant where TV really gets it wrong

is when no one thought about that Dr

Google was enough you know they thought

it they could squeeze it by and get away

with it and then at the last second they

think wait there are ways to get in

touch with a doctor and not just your

next door neighbor that you know is a

podiatrist nothing wrong with Podiatry

but it was a nurse surgery and so they

probably but in general

um so the show's not realizing they need

someone is where they could really add

up that but I helped one show that led

to another show and I just regularly get

called up to do new work and I love it

so I didn't realize that I guess it

makes sense you know for a movie with a

bigger budget you know they'd actually

have Consultants

and I I mean it makes sense I guess that

that TV shows were just winging it all

these years and that's what was

happening like they weren't

they were just kind of trying to figure

it out on their own well not for medical

shows I do feel modern medical shows

have not just one consultant I mean

there's Gray's Anatomy literally has

like uh insurance they have a hospital

they have this big program that's like

20 doctors so I would say that any

medical show figured it out what happens

is you have an episode where a main

character is in a coma and you think

about does Toma mean sleet or is it

something different and it's like if you

portray it as a deep sleep you're gonna

upset a lot of people not just the

doctors nurses but loved ones that have

had a family member and so I think it's

this we only have a medical story for

one episode we can read it and there are

free services one of them is Hollywood

health and Society where all they do is

match up writers with um medical types

and so every and not just like I'm

covering it all it's like every

specialty so there's an answer but when

I think to myself I'm watching a show

I've already thrown the remote

you know I'm going in like you know

changing the channel never watching you

know that streaming service again I

think could they have just called me

they could have called me we had this

nice five minute call I could be very

focused if I want and we just hash out

the issue right so it's like something I

couldn't help with a few answers you

know like throw on nasal cannula a few

extra beeping noises but the head of

about at 30 degrees you know have some

Mannitol body or what have you I could

have helped them through it and they

didn't know they needed my help

and so you so you got that first call

which it sounds like it was kind of just

happenstance right like they they tried

uh and he's going through the phone

exactly and they landed on you and and

you're willing to help them and so it it

just kind of snowballed from there but

was it it wasn't all like neurosurgery

or neural you know Neuroscience related

questions right I assume you were

probably being consulted on all kinds of

things in medicine

you know I mean it's all kinds of shows

I mean my first true show I landed on

was Royal Pains I mean I remember I know

the story but you know it's a guy who

lives in the Hamptons and he's not

allowed to be in the hospital so he's

doing all of his medical care like at

the Mansions very wealthy people and so

right away I had to adapt to the fact

that I'm not going to get 100 reality

but it's like the illnesses we deal with

are going to be portrayed in a fur

manner we're not going to get I have too

many coincidences you know where you can

do a Barrel in someone's kitchen and

then you know next scene later you know

they're in their living room enjoying a

cocktail so I mean I'm making things a

roulette but I couldn't put all the

connections together so but then I went

for a Royal Pains to Elementary so you

know it's a murder who done it and

obviously the creator of Sherlock Holmes

it's about a doctor you know and so but

they didn't ask me doctor questions I

had to create their murder and then have

Watson solve the murder using scientific

Pro to using medicine and so was

answering really weird questions like

you know holding if you hold up a vacuum

to someone's nose how long would it take

to suck out all of their oxygen you

cannot look that up on the internet it

doesn't exist and my internet search

would have led me to prison yeah I'm

looking up so many bad things but it

allowed me to use medical knowledge to

not only create the drama and the story

but to solve the case and so I enjoyed

that so so you're you're involved in the

the writing of the story too in some in

some shows yeah so I mean where I could

use the most is that I'm helping the

writers I could pitch a story I could

help break the story with the writer I'd

get help coordinate and push things in

the right direction and then I'm even

reading scripts and outlines so while I

you I do have some onset stories most of

my work is working with the writers I'm

working on the writing yet have you ever

uh are there any Specialties like I

don't know for instance Ophthalmology

where you're like yeah you need to talk

to somebody who actually you know knows

a lot about eyeballs does that ever I'm

sure he could refer you I know I know a

few people I'm just saying if you don't

want to you know do the eyeball stuff

like that's I'm just saying yeah I think

that I'm only as good as my my contacts

so while I can give a quick answer

do I respect the show enough that they

need a higher level expert so absolutely

the issue is the writers know they like

there's worse Whispers The Writers or

word Whispers they know me already they

know how I talk so I can't bring in a

bunch of Consultants yeah they're gonna

have their own doctor speak and they're

gonna have to figure them out you know

it took five years for

um one of my shows to figure me out so

the good part is then I interpret the

the expert and I just give them the

number oh that's my shows don't Turk

it's accurate as accurate as I want it

to be but when I I love to talk to the

specialist like at Duke University I'll

sit in the doctor's lounge and then I

see the urologist locked in and I'm like

I have some Urology questions for you

you know I see the orthopedic search I

have some questions for you now granted

they all come in through the other

entrance to avoid me but I mean I'm

smart just track them down it's actually

very similar to the way in some ways how

I put my skits together because like I

don't know anything about Urology I

don't know or anything about you know

most non-opthalmology related things and

so I have to do a lot of my own research

to try to come up come up with something

that's that seems accurate you know that

can pass for actual medical knowledge

because that's as you can attest I'm

sure like that's really important

because if there's one thing that like

medical people doctors nurses they'll

they will like just like latch on to the

one inaccurate thing and just it just

ruins it

for like the rest of the episode

so you just do a lot of research and

you're probably not going to give your

sources away but when it comes to like

neurology neurosurgery you're like yeah

very very accurate so you must trust

your sources oh you must do a lot of

research I'll tell I'll tell you what I

do

um it's it's not that sophisticated well

because see in Ophthalmology I'm not in

the hospital so I don't routinely

interact with I don't just I wouldn't

just see a urologist come in they'd be

very lost if that ever happened they'd

be there as a patient yeah exactly so so

I I don't physically interact with them

so what I do is I will like if I have an

idea for something I'll get on Reddit

threads that are like eight to ten years

old and because if there's one universal

truth it's that people complain about

their jobs on social media and so I'll

I'll just look at these really old

Reddit threads or whatever and just

listen to what these different

Specialists are talking about and I'll

it'll give me an idea if or something

and then I just have to you know gain

some of the knowledge that way why the

old thread

well they don't have to be old it's just

like that seems it the point is people

have been talking about all these things

for a long period of time and so it's

very easy to to find the little nuggets

of knowledge that I know things that

have lasted through the years and then

and then it's coming from the actual

Physicians and those Specialties and so

that I I have to assume it's accurate so

I use it and it turns out it's luckily

his stuff is satire so if he gets it

wrong it's just part of the joke exactly

yeah I think you probably have to be a

little more accurate in what you do yeah

but I mean the fact is I'm just looking

at Old um articles and so when it comes

to research I'm going to want to quote

you know Jam a New England Journal

Lancet but I'm okay if it's the case

report of name a new country we've never

heard of it's like I'll look at journals

that aren't necessarily because I need

to find weird stuff that people you know

wasn't in New England Journal last week

and everyone saw that so I actually look

up case reports but I go to the really

obscure journals with the impact factor

of the editor and two of the spread and

it's like and and I trust it because at

least published but at the same time

that's fascinating how do you pick up

the faces of all the doctor you must

have some memory of those doctors to to

recreate the visuals on your yeah

position well first so so you're

basically going to like the neurologic

Neurosurgical Journal of Siberia to find

your yeah to find your stuff yeah I

would say

um

there are certain characters that I I

have a mental image of them from my own

med school experience so I've come

across certain types of doctors some of

them are just totally made up like the I

mean the the emergency medicine doc you

know he's he's wearing the the all the

biking gear you know I can't say I've

ever actually actually one time I did

see an Emergency Physician actually show

up in the hospital with bike gear on so

I guess that one is actually or no bite

coat

no white coat

um I don't know if you ever put a white

coat on but or practice medicine while

wearing a helmet they would go along

with the the safety uh kind of side of

the things there but um yeah I guess

most of them now are made my memory's

kind of fading of everything you know

all the other Medical Specialties so a

lot of the personalities

I think people relate to them because

they are

um uh

different personalities different

Specialties are very consistent like

over Generations right so like

neurosurgeons

like I'm sure you probably see a lot of

the same types of personalities of among

neurosurgeons when you go to like a

neurosurgery certain traits that lend

themselves better to some Specialties

than to others well I don't know what do

you think is it the chicken or the egg

like is it a certain personality that

that joins a specialty or is it the

specialty that makes the personality or

maybe a combination of both you know I

don't know I think because of our

awareness at this point

um everybody acknowledges that where

there's diversity there's going to be a

we're not going to deal with other

person's about to say we're not gonna be

a bunch of clothes so I think we have

almost identified what the typical

personality is and then we love when

someone wants to go to neurosurgery that

just strikes this it's totally unique

New Perspective so I think it's that

self-awareness that we don't want to be

perceived you know let's just say a

studious or early that we actually have

really good stories when I sit on

residency paddles and we look through

what people accomplished I would never

get into training this these days you

know they're so well accomplished

so much personality like I mean the

opposite of what we're talking about now

with the neurosurgeon that does that

personality it's almost like they have

so much personality that when I'm in the

OR with them I seem like I'm more

interesting and it's like so it pays off

wow to breathe you know bringing in

people that are really well-rounded

really different than we you know we

totally agree yeah it's it's I I

actually do have my uh my med school

application at least my my you know some

of it like nowhere nowhere even close to

to the types of applicants that are

applying these days it's it's scary they

all have

Nobel prizes yeah they've all like

started and run a non-profit it really

is incredible yeah

um so I'm glad I don't have to apply now

but also the research that's the other

thing like did you do a lot I mean

you've published

okay here's a question like how are you

doing all this all right people ask me

that right I'm just making like two

minute skits all right you're like you

you publish you have like what a

somewhere around a thousand papers I

don't know most of which are not in the

Journal of Siberia but I've never been

in the Siberian Journal I really want it

good to have goals yeah but you so you

got the the ACT you're still you're

still publishing right you're still

doing research and um and uh you also

have this this secondary uh gig here

with uh being a TV consultant and you've

also started dabbling and acting I

understand is that right you're doing a

little acting just a little did that did

that come naturally as a neurosurgeon

um well I mean I'm playing so just so

you know I'm playing Dr Warren Godfrey

so it's like

okay that character is my name I just

happen to work at another facility

um so I'm already helping in the

crafting of the story so it's like

sometimes they even get to contribute to

how I you know some of my lie and so I

think it comes well because I already

have a vision about the scene looks that

collaborated with the writers so much

that I've just placed myself into the

mix

um but I love it yeah the way I look at

it is I get to experience complications

that I never want to experience but I

want to know how to do better than

so we write these awful complications

the doctors are having to deal with I've

never had that one but I feel like when

the patients ask me have you ever had

this particular problem I'm like yeah I

will mention it was on you know TV show

but I have mitigated breasts

yeah yeah yeah so I've worked through

the situation so I feel like it's very

healthy and Arctic for me to be able to

you know go through that experience but

not really having gone through that

experience yeah like a little practice

run yeah trial run for weird cases but

but how how many days are you clinically

like seeing patients doing surgery

yeah so I have a typical five-day week

I'm not counting one-on-one call

um I do Clinic three days a week and I

do I'm in the operating room two days I

do

I'm just a modern doctor I don't like

the idea of operating from 7 A.M to 9pm

that is the that has not even a

possibility for me so I really make my

schedule in such a way that I do have

time for research I do have time to you

know eat dinner with my family things

that are really important and so I'm not

you know maybe I'm not the typical

neurosurgeon if you know anything you

know about our views you do um I'm not

trying to do 25 000 rpus I mean to me

the really important people like the

ones I respect they're actually able to

operate at a very high level complex

cases volume but yet they're still well

rounded that's you know that to me is an

harder solution to figure out I

prioritize my pay shelf and my life you

know those are my two things and in my

life I'm I'm better off doing the

consultant because it's it's a joy it's

kind of fun I get to you know with a

Hollywood type yeah that's nice outlet

but I do research I like doing looking

into

um we all try to practice really fair

care but patients are not getting Fair

care you know before they even get to

the hospital before they even get to the

clinic they're not in an equal situation

to do well and it's like why do some

people do really well with the surgery

and the other ones have the same Surge

and seen surgery and they don't do us

well so I really like looking into I

hate I have to look into disparities

here inequities and social interprets oh

that I I'm just that's the area I'd like

to figure out you know we all can as

surgeons we can all do really good

surgeries but if we're fighting that

we're denying a proportionate population

success for whatever reason it is we owe

it to them to figure out why and try to

level the playing field and as you go

through neurosurgery residency it wasn't

research a part of your training I think

I think that's pretty typical right for

neurosurgery residencies it's usually

one year in the middle kind of between

the junior years and Senior years I

always thought it was done because you

you're done with the junior years and

you want to come in with positive notes

they make you forget over the year what

it was like over that year and then come

back all charged up but it's also good

so many people start their research

career exchange that during that time

and you might do some real hardcore

basic science work I've always

thought that I'd rather have a living

living lab than an actual lab so I like

to work with data and work with outcomes

but I have a lot of respect for people

that like to work in the lab yeah me too

I've spent a little bit of time at a lab

in college and it's a hard it's

extremely hard work and it also taught

me that it's not something I want to do

with my life and so I appreciate that

experience but somebody's got to do it

so yeah I just I just couldn't I didn't

have the patience for doing like pcrs

and Gene sequencing and all that stuff

so I'm glad we have people that do that

though did you always was an academic

career always in your future did you

no you wanted that early

yeah I mean I think it was just the idea

of giving back you know we learn how to

do things we get to function at a high

level and I could just work with the

patients which to me that's a lot and

that's everything but I also like the

idea that I get back to your younger

group and actually teach and I like the

idea that we're never we're all Learners

you never finished learning and for me

academics is acknowledging every day you

show up but you've not figured it out

you know my the residents may ask me a

question that I've never thought of

where you know he's just prompts me then

to go look into the research looking at

the data so I always thought thought

that that would be where I wanted to

land but it is hard when there's so many

restrictions on how we practice medicine

and working in academics you're

accepting the whole sphere things you

know that are practiced at a different

level it's not the typical just go

operate a ton and you know be be good to

your patients there's just a whole lot

more to it but I enjoyed a whole lot

more you know teaching research well I

think you're you're dispelling a lot of

the um

maybe the myths that unfortunately

there's some like you know comedian

ophthalmologists out there that like to

perpetuate about about stereotypes about

neurosurgery so so well done keep up the

good work

um but let's uh let's take a quick break

and we'll be right back with Dr Oren

Gottfried

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[Music]

all right we are back with Dr Gottfried

so Oren uh I know that you have I'm sure

lots of interesting stories working with

uh the Hollywood types in in this whole

different world of entertainment uh and

so you know tell me about you know

shooting scenes I know you've been

working on the with um the good doctor

which is how many seasons has a good

doctor been on now I'm six seasons they

just finished their sixth okay gotcha

see you soon yeah so tell me what that's

what that was like shooting a scene for

the good doctor

it was definitely a maybe so as it

developed and I was hoping it'd be

become a certainty but what the the

episode involved that all the residents

trying to figure out how to do this

really really hard once in a lifetime

spine surgery and they're all kind of

competing with the child there to see

who gets the cage and so at one point

they're in this lab working on like uh

really like a dummy or a simulator where

they're trying to put in the spruce and

they each one of the residents the

attending is walking around and each one

of the residents has to show what they

did and it's like you know didn't do

right this is awful why didn't you do

that but during it there is a video

playing up this fake horse they took and

I was the instructor and so I was

teaching uh force on how to do things

better so that's the premise

um I wasn't given a lot of information

and I wasn't given any supplies but I

was just told why don't you teach this

fake lecture

um again no fancy cameras no audio just

me and they're like why don't you teach

a lecture we don't care what you say I

probably won't even put your voice in

but we just wanted to look legitimate so

I mean I'm thinking this was before I

had an actual role in another show and I

was just thinking this is like one time

to be on air I'm gonna put everything

into it I'm just gonna like I'm gonna

hire a bunch of video videographers I'm

going to get a bunch of dummies I'm

gonna have all the coolest tool and I

spent hours just coming out with my

first product and sent it over and I'm

not like sending it in some fancy format

I literally did this with my iPhone

that's what I wanted and I don't get any

feedback I'm not I'm like did I do wrong

who did I piss off you know all he did

was everything they said and like a few

days later cryptically I get a try again

but I didn't get any feedback I didn't

well they said is preferably they don't

want to see your whole face so like they

don't I don't know they just want to see

my hands so not a lot of feedback and

all credit to them I'm the one pushing

this along they could have just said

they even said we could just shoot this

locally you know no big deal I'm like no

I'm gonna get this right and so I do

another version but granted I had to

have all these fight cut out like

they're simulated they're like wide

models and I'm like chopping them up

left and right and I have all like a

bunch of friends like help me get them

from all over the country but it's not

easy to buy a fake spy you should see my

locker now I never threw them away and

it just filled with a bunch of spines

um but I do another iteration it doesn't

it feels the same to me like I didn't

have any feedback and I set it in and

again cryptically I get a little

feedback better like I don't know it

starts better like like maybe one thing

like focus a little bit more on your

hands and so I did the next one and it

it worked I think they made the Final

Cut did you ever figure out what they

were going for there or just well I

watched the final episode and it was me

working in the background but um yeah

but it's in the OR so I left that out

but I'm doing all these scenes from the

or if you know anything about how

Madison's practice right now like

everything's about capacity you have to

like use every over the fact that I

found an or to shoot this in and my

colleagues would come in and what what

are you doing like I had all these props

and things they're like we need to use

that over for an emergency but all the I

I paid off all the nurses in the OR to

tell them what's up and they're like no

we can't use it so hard this is godfreed

so hard he's shooting a c

so it was just fun to actually be in my

home environment the or yeah and yet I'm

not doing anything like I I did take off

a few hours to do this each time but I

it was just fun to be in my own home and

celebrate some hoe shoot this and then

to know you know my University

everything made it to the final cut so

it was just it was a special time for me

I think maybe the producers of the show

uh maybe they underestimated just how

much of a perfectionist Physicians are

so uh you're right you know more

feedback would have been would have been

nice but you know you got it nice job

yeah and um also you I love it because

you gave us these a few little prompts

of different stories you know from your

time and uh doing all this stuff and

they they really like leave me wanting

to know more so tell me about an actor

that attacked you

wow yeah that was my thing so I've been

on sets many times now obviously I've

even acted but the very first time I was

on set it was a new it was elementary it

was a new show and so everybody's new to

each other so there's not a lot of

playing rules but I was told by all the

writers whatever you do you know don't

don't look any of the actors in the eye

don't walk up to them don't tell them

anything you can talk to them if they

talk to you and so I shook the first day

and it's a new show so no one knows

who's the guest on set but I'm sitting

to have me sit in like the you know the

video Village and like the director's

seat you know I'm sitting with like the

big wigs and so each one of the actors

slowly migrate to me trying to figure

out you know am I with the network with

the studio who am I and right away I

tell them I'm just consultant some

people say oh I didn't even think we had

one and so I'm just getting to know them

but I'm kind of chill not doing much

um but the lead of the show has not come

up to me to talk and so you all eat

together in the lunchroom and and so I

just like sat at his table I admired his

work I thought he was cool I thought it

would be fun and he just didn't look up

he just was eating his food and he's

almost done with his meal almost done

with my meal he's probably gonna go you

know study his lights and do things that

are productive and I'm just waitering on

the set and he just turns to me out of

nowhere he's like you know you really

shouldn't introduce yourself we have a

customer you need to introduce yourself

and I just said I was told not to bug

the actor she's like that's all right

and I'm not even trying to emulate his

yeah his speech patterns but he was like

no when you come on to myself when you

come on a new set we're all people you

need to introduce yourself and I just

think to myself okay wow wow you know

I'm sorry I didn't introduce what I saw

and to this day I it got it went further

but to this date I didn't know if he was

I'm joking with me you know I am a

neurosurgeon sometimes it's hard to

figure out or if he was totally serious

but it did escalate a little bit and

then another actor uh character that was

just a guest actor on the show sat down

and he's also a very famous it was kind

of random to be at that table and he

changed the subject because this other

actor every line he says is F this F

that and it's like all the f-bombs kind

of distracted the actor so kind of

change the subject but I wanted to join

in in this conversation just to see it

was I really on the the crap list or was

it all a joke yeah and I did engage I

brought up mad cow disease and things I

know a lot about and it really worked

and I got into the mix of the

conversation and I just didn't I stood

this date I don't know if he was just

picking on me if I really upset him but

just think I sat there through a whole

20-minute meal he didn't even look up or

look at me and then it you know one

moment he just tells me you you screwed

up you should have said hi so um it

never to the point of physical like

hitting me but I did feel pretty dumb

for a while so lesson learned if you

want to really hit things off uh in a

group of new people bring up mad cow

disease yes it's a it's a great

Icebreaker really great and it's a

neurosurgeon I know about it you know

right I know you know probably I'm

disease it's like something that I've

had to go through

well let's um I want to play a little

game this is a about uh this side of

your life this entertainment side of

your life

um it's called medical match-up all

right so

I uh have four scenarios these are all

things that have happened on a show that

you have consulted on okay

I'm going to give you the scenario and I

want you to tell me which show it's from

all right let's see if let's see how

good your memory is because you've been

doing this for quite a while now right

so a long time all right so let's go so

I love some of these all right so the

first scenario here

a recently brain dead patient is taken

off of life support so she can donate

her face to the injured patient who has

a chance to live with the transplant

good doctor that's the good doctor yes

face transplant face transplant yeah

yeah wow okay can we do those yet I

can't remember yeah I remember face off

from like being a kid and that was like

way science fiction yeah

there's partial and complete and they've

done a number I mean I think the it's 10

years now that they've been doing them

or slightly less but they're doing

really well it's still the the problem

that the patients have to be on

anti-rejection medications and it's a

very complex anastomosis so I don't

think it's for every you know patient

that unfortunately has suffered you know

severe damage to their face but I think

they're going to get better and better

that sounds like a long surgery

yeah all day

I mean just the way that they take off

the initial face these are individuals

unfortunately they're very scarred in

because of the trauma they've been

through

um very high chance that that blood

supply is not enough well I'm probably

using leeches even for helping with the

you know

congestion so yeah definitely a lot for

a TV story but

um a lot for you know I can't even

imagine like I think about this when we

do the TV work just what does it really

feel like to be you know patient or

family member and that's where I put my

foot down say the story has to be

accurate because someone's actually been

through it right I can't a little

minimize marginalize anything I you have

to be so sensitive to the fact that

someone's actually been through this

yeah exactly and just because I know a

lot of listeners their ears are gonna

perk up uh to hear you say that leeches

are sometimes used in medicine still and

help with venous congestion that was the

exactly on our last episode we were just

talking about that so it's kind of Full

Circle moment here we were wondering

actually like in what instances that is

actually used because I've never

actually seen it but again uh I'm in my

own little corner of medicine so we

don't use them anymore

no no wow that's good TV that's good TV

here's my next scenario for you okay

what show is this from a pilot has

severe stomach issues turns out that he

has an addiction to drinking gasoline

oh wow do you remember this it may not

have been something you consulted on but

I mean I would have to go with Chicago

Med yes

you drink gasoline once you weren't

addicted that was not a purposeful uh

and I was a child but you know I can get

a gas station accident yeah

my mom's gonna kill me on the story but

um how old were you oh I was I was

probably like

eight or nine or something I'm a poster

child for don't let your kids even if

they want to help you put the gasoline

in the car don't let that happen because

of course I screwed it up and uh got

pulled up sprayed myself in the face I

was fine but you know had the emergency

room trip and all that stuff I just

remember them taking all my clothes off

and just pouring buckets of cold water

on me I just that's that's like the only

thing I remember from that experience

that was the worst part yeah that was

that was terrible who feels the gas in

your family that I we think you'd be

traumatized to the point where you never

go to a gas station that's why we live

in Oregon yeah they pump before you here

you're not allowed to pump your own I'm

sorry I didn't even think about it no I

totally understand why you live there

yeah it was the one and only reason we

had to move out here it is absolutely

not the reason we live in Oregon in fact

I think it's it's it's really

frustrating I really don't like it it

takes a long time it takes forever you

have to wait for some but it's you know

it's the economy and it creates jobs and

stuff so it's weird there's only two

states you know what the other state is

that where you can't pump your own gas I

was gonna make up Alaska but I have no

idea New Jersey

New Jersey New Jersey and Oregon okay

yeah all right here's the next one

this might be the last one

all right and man has severe pain but

refuses to talk turns out he has a gun

lodged inside his rectum and the doctors

need to safely remove the gun without it

going off

I would say Chicago that's also Chicago

Med yes and it's making me want to watch

Chicago Med because my God

the scenarios that have so many

questions about that yeah

so many questions

um I've never heard of that being

something and someone I know there's a

lot of things that can be put up there

but uh yeah I would imagine

perhaps well I wouldn't think that would

be one of those where they where that is

um self-inflicted yeah I don't know but

you never know let's ask those questions

I'm sure we can watch the show and find

out all right actually I do have one

more okay

um this one probably a very common

scenario actually painful patient has

painful headaches memory loss and

hallucinations which leads to a

diagnosis of post-concussive

post-concussion syndrome the result of

too many blows to the Head

which patient was that

well I mean there's

going to and I'm not sure if you have

all my shows we did have that on

Elementary yes it was Elementary yes

yeah I mean that was the major character

that got mad at me in the cafeteria oh

really oh that was it okay all right

well that's funny we didn't even know

that was gonna be give us give us your

can you give us your personal like top

three favorite medical shows

absolutely I'm really I'm really a

sucker for those I love when a show gets

it right yeah so am I going in order or

just listing yeah go ahead and order go

in order yes start at the bottom number

three so we're doing my my best favorite

show yeah so as your number one is your

favorite and then so start at three and

go up to one let's hear it

okay

the ones that just jump out of you yeah

so I'm gonna put up my list I'll just go

with I'll put mashup I'll tell you why I

mean there's it's a comedy it's you know

dark and dealing with a very tough

subject but they actually hired a

medical consultant I looked it up they

actually had a surgeon that helped them

and just at that time I already I'm

contradicting myself because they said

there was a time where shows didn't even

know they needed somebody that's showing

no knew they needed somebody and I just

think now granted sometimes they're

doing surgery without gloves on you know

granted there are times where

something should have been they've been

they should be paying attention to that

surgery and not what they're doing but

still I just think they do a good job

and I can watch the show and I don't

it's not cringe-worthy I can actually

accept their logic so that's one I would

go to ER next I mean I'm often age that

I did have ER before I was in medical

school to some extent and I just felt

like the intensity and the accuracy the

fact that they could say things in a in

a way that they could be saying complete

garbage if you're non-medical and

wouldn't even know but they sounded so

good and it was so intense and yet it

was accurate and they didn't straight

from accuracy very often so I feel like

they really I agree stayed strong to

that

um there was a short-lived show that

really captured my interest it was the

Nick

that's like Showtime or cinematics yeah

weird small network but it it dealt with

like the creation of medicine so we're

like in 1910 in New York City and I

granted not all the inventions in

medicine came out of New York City but

I'm sure it bunched it but they they put

together like a bunch of stories that

didn't exist as far as medicine but it

all seemed realistic you really felt

like that surgeon was creating medicine

right in front of you like putting

cocaine into someone's spinal fluids or

anesthetic or some guy operating on

himself but it was only two seasons but

the medicine to me was very accurate now

granted they didn't have fancy machines

there's only a limited amount of what

you could do but I bought into it and

when that show was didn't make it to a

third season I was pretty sad so I'm

still a little sore I have to go revisit

that show because I remember watching a

few episodes and thinking it was really

good so that's that's uh which you know

those cable shows you know the the only

other I think was it as a Showtime or

HBO that had the what's the plastic

surgery show that was pretty awesome oh

yeah

yes yeah uh that that was that's that's

been a while since that one my sister

watched it that's how I was yeah I heard

about it but how about scrubs what's

your what's your opinion on that I mean

I love the dynamic so the Rapport the

badger I mean I would say if things just

my own judgment the things that align

with your comedy I would say the closest

like yeah honestly I could see you as a

character on that show if the timer was

right I mean yeah you would meet other

churches you just run the whole show but

I'm saying it fits that Vibe you know

like you're all of your various

characters yeah I mean they wouldn't

have to rewrite like I always think if I

pitch an idea to the writers and they

just take it I'm so cool like they

wouldn't need to rewrite your stuff it

would just fit it so I thought the

banter and the communication and the

style and the respect for the attendings

and how residents only survive with each

other they could rely on each other it

captured that like no other show

absolutely I just do a remake then I do

draw a lot of inspiration you know from

because I grew up watching scrubs like

yeah that's that's a very formative TV

show in my in my life so um

which is house oh yeah so I mean just

this background the majority of people

that created good doctor created house

so

um I grew up you know I was at a time I

watched it

um I I think it was very accurate I do

like the patterns you know like someone

would code at 20 minutes on every

episode there are certain things that

watch a show you respect it but I mean

like fundamentally we are all very

strong and we're carrying we're doctors

but are we all slaught 100 we're all

flawed and we're all flawed in different

ways and so for a show to admit that

there's a lot going on but when you turn

on you know you put the white coat on

you go see a patient can you turn it on

can you do right for your patient and so

I felt like it's a show that shows the

human character that no one's perfect

data you know a good crew of people

dealing with their own struggles but

very similar to the good doctor

everybody can step up and do the right

thing but yeah we're all dealing with a

lot so I felt like I was did a really

good job yeah that's true yeah kind of

the human side of a doctor well there

you go so it was Mash uh ER and uh the

Nick yeah that were that were your top

three that's a good list right there I'm

sure you could probably do a lot more

but um those are good ones well

Oren thank you so much for coming on it

really has been a pleasure talking with

you and getting your uh hearing about

your experience in the entertainment

World which is something that's always

fascinated me so keep up the awesome

work uh now you're on Twitter that's how

I uh you know first heard about you on

Twitter uh OG Duke neurosurge uh and

what else uh are you working on anything

else do you what do you got going on in

your life

that you want people to know about yeah

I mean there's always this volunteer

work and the shows I'm working on

um my research I do a lot with data and

a big project I've taken on I've become

a national chair for data for American

Spine registry so we collect data from

200 centers around the country and then

we look at how we can make outcomes

better I mentioned earlier how really

interested and disparities and people in

score and so as a data manager being you

know in charge a chair I just feel like

we're going to do great things with all

this data and probably you know

hopefully improve the quality of care we

all together that's awesome yeah keep up

the great work and um congrats on

somehow finding time to do all of these

things

um and thank you it's awesome so uh yeah

thanks for coming on

foreign

big thanks to Dr Gottfried for coming on

uh and giving his uh perspective on on

TV medical shows that's something I've

always been curious about I know me too

how they how they get the accuracy or or

inaccuracy so if you have a medical TV

show and that's your favorite and that

they say something that's medically

incorrect you can blame Oren for that

for all medical TV shows medical TV

that's all of time you said there are a

lot of them like the like Gray's Anatomy

has like an army of right I'd imagine

too it's a balance right like a

trade-off between story and yeah

accuracy because it's not a research

Journal it's a television show right

like there's got to be some drama

yeah you don't want it to like be 100

accurate to medicine because who wants

to watch that yeah I don't know anyway

um all right so let's get to stories

should we let's do it all right so we

have story of our favorite medical

stories that were sent in by listeners

so our first story comes from Jessica I

started doing a thing I have I I haven't

read these beforehand oh so I'm just

gonna like do it we're just gonna listen

to it I want to see see what happens

what was the thing do you know in UIL

when we were kids we had those academic

competitions there's a speech one but

there was one where you like I thought

there was one where you had to read

something unseen like this I thought

this was an event in uif how was it and

you got judged on your performance well

do people know what UIL is I don't know

is that just a Texas thing it was an

academic competition

High School what it stands for yeah

middle school high school it was like

Olympics for nerds well there was one I

loved it there was one that was called

Ready writing I did that one I was not

to brag but I I got some awards and

ready ready very good where you get a

prompt and you have to immediately write

something about it like a like a so

maybe that makes sense I didn't have to

have one for reading for reading tell us

more about like your performance you

know okay yeah congratulations I'm fine

I might be mixing two events together

fan Story number one from Jessica

anymore

hint taken when I was pregnant with my

first child I got home from a run and

noticed some vaginal bleeding and wasn't

sure if it was a concern it was a

Saturday so I didn't think I'd be able

to call the clinic of my

obstetrician I now realize I could have

called the hospital and connected with

the on-call but I didn't know that then

that's interesting setup there that's an

important Point too right like you

assume everyone knows that no not

everyone knows that we didn't have

awesome insurance so I didn't want to

rush to the ER but I also didn't want to

ignore it if there was something to be

concerned about my sister-in-law is a

life-flight nurse and got her start in

labor and delivery then in the NICU so I

called her and asked what she thought

after I got off the phone with her my

husband asked what she said I told him

she wasn't concerned about the by the

amount of blood and that it was probably

from switching things up in the bedroom

since my body had changed

he looked horrified and said you told my

sister we had sex

and I was like it was relevant to what

was going on and I'm like seven months

pregnant I think she knows

my obstetrician thought it was pretty

funny and teased him about it at the

delivery

I love getting teased about it yeah at

the delivery with the doctor and nurses

and everybody present that's that's a

good one thank you Jessica

um so we have Story number two comes

from Jillian

I'm a phlebotomist slash lab assistant

at my local County Hospital I had to

draw a patient in the ER I walk in

introduce myself I came to get some

blood from you rubbing the sand

sanitizer in reaching for the Lilac

covered colored gloves not covered

gloves that would be weird and the

patient asks can you take my legs off

my brain screeches to a halt I'm

thinking I can't have heard that right

what else could it have been because I

clearly heard that wrong my brain starts

moving again oh did you mean take the

blanket off your legs that makes much

more sense right I clearly see two legs

under the blanket white tennis shoes

peeking out from under the blanket so I

lift the blanket up off the patient's

legs to see two prosthetic legs from the

knee down

my brain kind of crashes

error 404 page not found itself I say oh

crap uh they really want me to take off

my take off their legs my inner

monologue says as words start to form I

say um I I don't know how just push the

button on the side the patient tells me

I push said button and boom I'm holding

a leg

oh

there's a sentence for you where do I

put this I'm thinking I put it on there

I put it on the floor standing up at the

foot of the bed quickly detached the

other leg and set it next to its twin

the patient's size with relief and so do

I phew I can get the blood and get the

heck out of here I don't think that

patient's going anywhere for a bit

I I think I would I'm sure like

you know patients do like to like play

little practical jokes yeah you think

that's what it was because that was my

question is why would you need to take

your legs off to get blood drawn well I

don't know yeah maybe it was just like

uh oh maybe it seems like it's more

comfortable with the legs off I don't I

don't know I I have no idea but um you

never know what you're going to

encounter I'm holding the leg during a

day as a medical professional boom I'm

holding a leg

um has anyone ever played a prank on you

you're any of your patients oh gosh I

mean I probably

um I I can't think of one if I do think

of one else yeah you have to report that

everyone uh thank you for those stories

Jillian and Jessica send us your stories

knock knock high at

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shout out like Mal D on YouTube said

from one emergency medicine miraculous

save to another I wish you a healthy

heart and long fulfilling happiness with

your lovely beautiful wife your humor

helps it unite Physicians teachers

students clinicians and researchers

alike and we need more Mutual

understanding kindness and support

laughing together is an amazing way to

achieve that Amen to that godspeed Dr G

may all of us have a doctorate like you

or or your lovely guests and may all

Specialties get our own Jonathan's I I

thank you that's such a thoughtful thing

to say I really appreciate that and um

uh I totally agree everybody should have

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you know either chat GPT version or the

real one I don't know uh but thank you

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