YouTube Mental Health Channels & Drama | A Dangerous Intersection?

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Hello everybody. This is dr. Grande. I'm here today with a special guest Nate Smith

LPC, hi Nate. Hello. Hi, we're gonna be talking about a variety of issues kind of like the culture of YouTube and

How channels attract attention and kind of tap into some of the recent things that have been going on. I think it'll be an interesting

conversation for everybody

So I want to lead off Nate. What do you think? Sure. So I think one of the things you know we've had

We've gotten to know each other over the last I want to say

probably three weeks now right or going on two weeks at least and just we I mean

I guess it'd be good to just sort simply review, you know the recent controversy about mental health and how it intersects

with sort of pop culture YouTube or popular

Mmm, I mean media and those sort of I mean quote-unquote drama channels and I use that rather derisively

because I you know, I know that there's some sensitivity and I also but you know

We could take that apart to if you want it at some point

Anyway, so we sort of met talking about that. I mean and you and I have offline have had some really nice conversations

I thought about you know talking about what is the line?

What's the boundary you know for talking about mental health in a way that is?

You know ethical appropriate tasteful

but then also being able to engage a community that maybe isn't

necessarily seeking that out, right and finding a way to

Do that that that is meaningful, but also that you know, that's tasteful and ethical and careful to not

umm and

Implicate certain, you know sort of things in diagnostically speaking or or so on

Yeah, you know this is this is an excellent question. This is the struggle that we again both talked about kind of

when we're not recording and

You know in a perfect world, right?

We could use our education and training and our ability to kind of dig into the research and plot information

And our experience and make videos and they would reach everybody that would be interested

Hmm, but in the real world, you know YouTube is highly competitive

there's other

Social media platforms that compete with it as well and that don't really involve videos. I think some that might even fall videos

Hmm. So what you really see with YouTube, I noticed this over. I guess almost five years now

I've been on YouTube but especially in the last year and a half with the kind of form Adam I have now is that

You're really rewarded when you push the edge like when you get close to

The boundary of whatever you're talking about

Right, so it doesn't matter if it's mental health or if it's somebody else doing a another type of channel

It's about like pushing it to the extreme

That's that in a sense, I guess

Maximizes the number of people that will watch and I think too YouTube is primarily an entertainment platform still I look at the videos

We're kind of like

unusual figures, right kind of like

Encroaching right, interloping on this world of like drama

Entertainment sensation seeking to some degree impulsivety right is rewarded on YouTube, right spontaneity

All characteristics that I try to avoid in my videos, right? So

Yeah, you know it's it's a difficult question. I there for me. There's something that doesn't feel quite right

About like trying to make thumbnails that are really super attractive and super provocative when you are in fact talking about

You know science you're talking about mental health experiences. It's very down-to-earth stuff. Right, right

nothing in one of my videos should be shocking or dramatic unless you're really

interested in like

Nuances of mental health disorders and things right for me. It's still you know for me it's exciting and obviously a lot of people

There watch it's exciting for them, but the wider audience

Right. I don't know if we just it's some level what if we have the appeal

Doing what we do to reach out to an audience, like some of them were dramatically oriented channels can mmm can access

Yeah, and I think that's an excellent point in that

You know the fringe piece and kind of figuring out

Because you're right. I think a lot of people that are wanted so I guess a little context for me. I'm brand new YouTube

I mean I'm talking I made a response video that got nearly three thousand views and I was like in love with it

Right. I've been a youtube fan and viewer for many many years

You know going back to what you had to wait for it to buffer right to watch the video

So, I mean I've seen and watched YouTube evolve over time and as well as the the sort of original content, you know

It used to be bootleg videos and things like that. And now there's original content producers or creators

and so, you know, you're absolutely right in that there is this

The awards entertainment rewards entertainment

It rewards that provocative edge pushing, right and and then it's also kind of this

It's very niche oriented because for some people I mean many people on YouTube. It's it's a business, right?

It's a way in which they establish their brand or establish their their voice in an effort to seek

Some sort of monetary gain, I think and so you know for us who are I mean

I think that my yes money and mental health, you know, that's a whole other video I think on some level

you know, we're in this weird position because

You know as as mental health providers and as educators, you know, we're not necessarily

inherently good at

Knowing how to you know, to pursue the dollar right to follow the bigger better deal to know the financial trends

You know the way to monetize things now if it happens a long way, I think it's you know

Obviously it's a benefit and we're not gonna say no I think on some level as so long as it's ethical and it you know

we can keep our integrity intact, but

yeah, and so it's this it's for me and my observation of

Mental health channels on YouTube being a very niche a lot of people have to sort of find us or seek us out

And so, you know, we've seen with the recent provocative

rocket sort of

controversy, I'll say is that there was as tapping into

the zeitgeist of YouTube right that edg's were provocative and an intersect with mental health and a lot of people reacted in

very strongly

and I'm interested in that because

You know, I mean there was a lot of like condemning back and forth whatever, you know

but I was interested in knowing how mental health is in, you know is very

We're talking about it in level and you know in spheres that aren't necessarily talking about it, right?

Right and and here's and here's I think what it comes down to in one sense and we we kind of know, you know

We know how the story has unfolded so far and when we have seen things happen other channels

But I guess kind of what I wonder is

if somebody's attracted to the drama component of mental health

Right if that's why they're clicking on a thumbnail

Because they want to hear about a YouTube

celebrity or a quasi celebrity and they want to hear about their mental health status or something about

You know, something's went wrong in their life or symptoms whatever is

That the viewer that's really kind of primed for an educational message

Mm-hmm

Right and it may mean I don't know the answer and they may be or certainly a proportion of them would be

But I also kind of think maybe a fairly large proportion

Would not be like they're kind of looking for that

Again, more dramatic more sensationalistic content and if it involves mental health great if it doesn't great

but it's not necessarily an attraction to

Psychopathology appraisal counseling techniques like all the things that we would talk about. Hmm. So

yeah, I mean it's

We can definitely I think do things to

position certain videos in a more attractive way for a wider audience

Hmm, but is that really going to is the is the message really gonna penetrate at any higher rate? Hmm?

That's kind what I wonder about and that's a fair point

I think you know is is the viewer in a place to hear what we have to say, right?

And it's almost like accidental education, right?

I came here to be educated not or I mean I became I came here to be entertained not educated and

And I that's a fair point. I don't know I think

You know, I've been playing on my channel, you know again being brand new to this whole I mean the creator

Perspective I've been playing around lots of different things

Is there a way that you can come because we know sort of what not to do now

Right last say three weeks has taught us that and as professionals, you know

We take heed quick, you know, cuz we gotta you know, we've got a reputation to maintain

And so we know what not to do which in my opinion. I'll say this to my clients often

we know what doesn't work is as helpful as what does work, you know, and and so

in my

Investigation of how do I find the proper sort of?

Combination or permutation of content that's engaging, you know

that'll attract the out like that'll make the algorithm have a awareness of me as a brand-new creator that

Entertains on a certain level but that also does that sort of educational piece and and you know to varying degrees of success

I think on some point if you see my videos the highest videos are my response videos to the drama

So, you know, I think

That sort of speaks for itself, but you know, it's it's an ongoing

Sort of struggle I think for many and this is not sort of unique to creators in general right as mental health creators

We're certainly knows, you know, we're all not alone in trying to get that algorithms attention. Yeah

Yeah, and you think you know

There's a couple of different ways to think of yourself as ranked with youtubing and one level you've competing against other channels

like yourself right other professionals and

you know you make a video on I

Don't know like borderline personality and I make a video on board line person is order and so to 20 other

Clinicians and advocates. How do you get higher rank there?

hmm, but then, you know kind of that higher level question is

Can we in any way kind of unlock that other market you get that other viewer that maybe wasn't?

Maybe wasn't interested in again the nuances of war line personality sorter, but there's something that we tap into this trending or some

Using somebody's name that attracts attention without really talking about them. And will that hold their attention and will that really?

Again, kind of get that message in and it's uh, it's tough, you know, I don't know

I don't know if there is a happy balance. I don't know how close you can get to that fire without getting burned

I mean we've seen like you said we see what happens when you go

too far right and and it can give you short-term like explosive growth and then

It doesn't work out too. Well, right so we've kind of seen a template for you know one extreme and

It's pretty unlikely to either of our channels will ever reach a point like that like that. Yeah, that's not our type of content

So right, you know

It's for us would be a much more gradual move and small changes to see if we can approach something more kind of attractive

In the as the thumbnails line up, whatever

Yeah, you know

I've given this a lot of thought I've looked at Analects for a long time

I've studied trends I've seen how certain videos are performed. You know, I think sometimes when people look at mental health channels, they just assume

You know at least a proportion of people would assume that

We're just kind of doing our thing. We're not paying attention to the larger YouTube picture right and par

That's fair. But the other part is, you know, I have been and you have certainly been very tuned in

Yeah, that's going on watching a lot of other videos when I first started making videos. I didn't watch anybody else's videos

Right when I first started making them. I didn't know what a subscriber was

Right. I saw the counter move and I'm like, what's that? What's that number? Oh

How about that? Yeah, right. Yeah, I didn't even know that was a thing, you know, so and that was like

For a substantial period of time like I I was making videos for months and months months

Probably even all of like 2014 my first year. I'm not sure. I really ever got what

Subscribers were what they did. Hmm, and then I started paying attentions that number grew and people started commenting and stuff

but that's you know more so since 2017 because

Statistics videos don't really attract, you know bigger very yes, very nice shot. Absolutely

Yeah, so to use phil mcgraw as an example, right the the guy who calls himself, dr

Phil on the on the TV show right? He has a

PhD in psychology if I'm not mistaken, but no current license

so at one time he was like

And now he's not and if you look at his show and of course, he has a YouTube channel that goes along with that show

his videos, I mean he really

he really centers on individuals who have

kind of

Mental disorders that are gonna attract a lot of attention

Attract a lot of interests, right? We see a lot of

infidelity being talked about there a lot of kind of

Emotionally assault of behavior and drama

sometimes

paraphilias sex offenses things like that

So he's really, you know, he's pushed the envelope but he's in a sense since he's the only one doing that in television

Really?

I think he's kind of legitimized that just by being the only one and by being a PhD and everything

but I actually think what he does is

like not him personally, but just that whole that whole thing, right that whole show that whole concept I

Don't find it as a kind of a positive force for mental health. No, I think yes it gets views

I was looking at a video even I watched him sometimes right?

Video his that was exposed

What's that? Sorry I said exposed

I saw the of his the other data had something like I want to say five

five or six million views

And I think the comments were disabled. So it must have been a kind of

Got a little out of control there and you think okay comments disabled

You wouldn't think that video would surface too much

It gets surfaced a lot and it has five or six million views, so he's been rewarded

for

You know going way over the boundary in my opinion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's not there's nothing clinical

No, I would say there's nothing scientific, but I don't know him. He might involve science. I know he involves like

People that are licensed. Sometimes he has him sitting in the front row

Mm-hmm and everything and I guess that kind of adds credibility to the whole

Yeah, and what's interesting is they usually so my mom loves, dr. Phil and and and I I

Mean, I'm terminally optimistic on some level and I'm going you know, is it ideal representation of mental health?

Absolutely not but I mean somebody's talking on some level and you're right. I mean is it? Yes

exactly scientific it is it exactly

I

Mean a good representation of mental health. No, I don't think so. And you're right and I think

For instance with you these YouTube channel. I mean, I'm those clips float

I mean I click on one and I've got I'll fall into a hole for like an hour, right?

I mean like because you're talking about isn't there like a guy who turns blue or there's like

There's I mean infidelity after infidelity after vanilla and it's like you're right in that it sort of

Paints a very unfair picture of what mental health is

And then it also gives us as other you know

say we want to have a voice in in the wider sort of culture of mental health and then

It gives us a big shoes to fill in a weird way, you know, and that when people come to our channel

They're saying okay. So you're gonna analyze somebody right?

You're gonna sugar, you know, or to give them show them the tough love treatment or something and it's like well

That's not actually how what most of this works, you know? Yeah. There's there's a part of that show and that whole kind of

movement, but I got the keys of kind of the primary driver or at least of the television part that you have to worry as

A professional at least a little bit least I do

That some of those people I know they PI signed tons of contracts right that say he's not licensed

This is not therapy. Don't expect to be helped, you know

Maybe maybe the contracts even say you'll be harmed I who knows what they say, right?

But I mean that's very seductive right a chance to be on a television show and you know

You can tell all your friends. I'm gonna be on you know, dr. Phil and all this stuff. It's it's

a lot of attention you'll get and you have to wonder if that's really

Good for people in those situations right good for people who are fighting

terrible relationships and and tough circumstances infidelity mental disorder symptoms

Is that really the best thing therapeutically I get that he's got the the experts sitting in the front row and everything

And I'm sure they do follow up with the people and all. Oh, yeah

but still I wonder if that's really

is that really helping is that what we want to do right like

If I had you know access to an unlimited number of people

Who wanted to come on my show and talk about their mental disorders? I would feel very uncomfortable

Mmm, every single time. I don't know if I could even I don't know how I could make that work. Mm-hmm

Yeah, and I think that it

There's there you can't say this

you know and not talk about some sense of selling out right as a mental health professional or as a

You know sort of personality, right?

I mean he makes I think I read 80 million dollars a year doing this thing

And you know, I know I sound like a bitter Betty here, you know, and I'm like, I wish I made 80 million dollars

So your shoe, you know, but it seems it's you're right. It's seductive on both ends

I think both for the the folks who sort of want that I mean because he's also he has made a star

I don't know if you know Danielle, Brogoli. Who's

Catch me outside. How about that girl, you know and she's this like

phenomenon in the YouTube community amongst younger people

She's morning folks or the hip hop community and does she's a musician, you know these sorts of things

And he she originated on his TV show, right?

And so he's also apparently a star maker, you know, and and then so from RN to as professionals and we're going Wow

okay, eighty million dollars a year, you know and all I gotta do is drop my license and

you know start I don't know some kind of television show where I I don't know what you would call but he does but

Um, and it's I mean it's seductive, right?

and

so it there's a I mean there is an element I guess on some level of selling out right from our side of it like

Do we begin we talked about this sort of briefly in our conversations prepared for this?

About you know, if you look at the community the so-called drama channels. Okay, and I use air quotes and I used to be derisively

Because you know we can get into that some other time I guess but essentially, you know

They're a very power

They have a lot of viewers their videos get tons of views and you matter of fact

I've watched channels shoot up from like a thousand to five thousand

You know, I'm we basically saw a recent example of what we would say the power of drama YouTube

subscribers, you know, I mean, it's

It's effective. It's powerful its

seductive from the content creators perspective because even you know,

I don't know about maybe with you but as I've been my side of the block I said the most views on my videos are

The ones where I'm commenting on some sort of drama

Quote-unquote you see and and it's seductive and if you kind of equate that on maybe on a grander scale to what?

Phil McGraw is doing which he's essentially you know, he's he's

Commentating on the drama of this, you know of these people's lives and where it is the intersection of mental health

So it's a very powerful thing is a very seductive thing

and I mean

I don't know where I'm going with this but I sort of just wanted to highlight that what do you think about that?

Yeah, you know and then you all to build on that you could argue that and I don't know if he's making this argument

Right, but something that if I was thinking about like defending it from his perspective

Maybe he could say well, okay. Yes. It's it's drama. Maybe even selling out right quote-unquote, right?

But what if one out of ten people?

Realize they have a similar problem and go seek treatment or one out of twenty or one out of a thousand

Right, so it gets into this. Okay. I'm entertaining the masses but there are gonna be a few people that learn

Something helpful, even if they didn't go with that intent, right?

so, you know when you have an audience that huge I mean when you put up videos and do millions of

Views on one video. Mm-hmm. Yeah, you could certainly make a mathematical argument in terms of the the drama community

You know, it's I think it's very difficult and you really touched on this very well

It's very difficult to see video after a video that you work very hard on

You know do okay or do reasonably well and then see one that only has drama value, right?

No, no actual

Accurate information is being conveyed. Right? No information was harmed in the making of this video

and that video

skyrockets, right and and brings a channel

Up into like YouTube popularity or you know, whatever the level would be. Mm-hmm. I can understand why legitimate

licensed professionals and other mental health

People right at other people with mental health education, 'he's like training hmm. We'll say, you know, okay

Well, let me make some let me just make a few of those. Mmm. Right just so you have my channel

I pay the bills keep the lights on right?

Yeah, and then you know, you start realizing well, I'm kind of wasting time by making the good videos

I just need to make the videos that score the views and before you know, what your channel

Isn't really something that you've had a hand in shaping

You just you just fall into the contour of the landscape. Mm-hm and

That's a strategy right minute. That's a legitimate strategy. Somebody could say

Well, you can just chase the trends and I've said many times

I don't think there's anything wrong with that

but you can't really chase the trends and

say that that was your vision and you can maintain your vision and once you your message, so your message is just to kind of

reiterate and put a twist on

Somebody else's idea. Mm-hmm. I can see that as a part of it

But what happens I think these channels get wrapped up to where that's all they're doing. Hmm, you know that they're just really

Reflecting I guess like from a counseling point of view. We'd say it's it's a reflection, right?

No, no

Not a parroting with a reflection and they're adding some value in theory

and I guess the more value they add the more you can you can

Make that legitimate like your critiques you add a lot of value

Right, so that's not really to me. That's hardly trend chasing

The trend is just there to help get some interest but your your videos are original, but some of the videos I've seen

another channels are just

There's literally no new information. Mm-hmm. Like you could watch the original video

And yeah, I mean in at that point, it's sort of like what do you do?

When you see that and you mean and you look at these videos and and it's not let's just put a disclaimer. We're not

Critiquing or criticizing anyone's we'll call it hustle. That's what they call it in the community. I'm learning all time. That's any words

Let me tell you and the hustle being up, you know coming up trying to build your channel to build your brand

We're not critiquing it from like, you know is from a personal perspective now granted

you know art is often personal and so people can maybe interpret that as personal but I think on some level it's it's

You're right

I think if you're if you were to look at it and their reaction

there's not a lot of new information even I mean cuz I'm

part of my and I'll admit it here and this is gonna haunt me I know but I like I watched some of those

commentary channels and some of the quote-unquote drama channels because

It's the fastest way to get a sense of what's going on, right? Cuz there's I mean there's

The trending news channels are part of it, you know

But to get to know what because YouTube is a microcosm and there are things that happen on the daily basis

or maybe weekly basis that

Can you know that you want to know right instead of be trying to chase all of it down some of it too and then?

some of them are quite good and I and I don't

you know out out or anything like that, but I mean, there are some that do have quality and that offer their commentary that is

Nuanced that is sophisticated

That's empathic in a way and insensitive in some levels

Hmm, but but also accountable or hold accountability, but then you're absolutely right there

Are those who just get on there to I don't know make say something for the sake of saying something

Which you know, it is YouTube

That's the cool thing about it is that if you want to have a voice and that voice is literally he's nothing original

I mean, I guess you can do that

You know and so I guess sort of my point is is that you

It's quite seductive, you know, two to four, you know, and and like I I lightly listen recently

You know with this this controversy I had heard I've watched a lot of critical critique videos

and I almost sort of lost my own sense itself in that I kind of had to step away because I didn't say how to

Separate what I knew from what was actually going on versus you know, what other people were saying and so on and so forth

in losing my sense of self, right and

Essentially, you know what? A lot of the commentary was was about being

Qualified quote unquote

But here's the the rap if we're qualified

You and I I mean for all intents and purposes would be considered qualified and we're hesitant to do it

Right, right. And so it's almost sort of like this cosmic. Irony where it sits

There are the there are the grapes yet if we only reach for them

Right, and and so I don't know I suppose that's my my whole point to all of it is just that

You know, I think you know, we've mentioned this one we'd spoke once before

there's

We don't have a structure in our profession to talk about these things

Right and and it says well you shouldn't go on youtube vision critique popular youtubers like that's not in our ethics

necessarily so, you know, I know that you're you had a great video release recently about

psychiatrists commenting on on

This sort of thing, you know, but that's the only profession that I know it has that

Yeah, they certainly have the most strict rule with the Goldwater the so-called Goldwater rule

Section seven I think of their code. But yeah you write the other Mental Health Professions

Even those MIT as I was making that video and kind of reviewing like preparing for that video

Yeah, the the wording in there like the APA the wording is

Not quite as potent as what we see with the American Psychiatric Association. They're both APA. Here's some psychological and psychiatric

but yeah the NBCC oo or even the the ACA depending on you know states use different codes like say don't or uses NBC see

there they're really not saying a whole lot except for

If you're going to do counseling the person has to be your client if you're gonna make public statements

You have to be in line with the code of ethics. Mmm. So you can piece that together and say okay

I can't diagnose somebody unless they're my client, right but it really

Kind of leaves a lot available

To counselors to get out there and say well I've noticed that this person did this know in some video

I saw or on TV and

This brings up an interesting point about anxiety depression OCD, whatever you thought they had

whatever symptoms they had but then again when you're when you're trying to

Infer somebody's mental state. That's the slippery slope, right?

Like if it was like if we were behaviorists right instead of like I I tend to emphasize

Cognitive existential therapy, right?

If we were like strict behaviorist, I think our rise through the YouTube ranks would be much much easier

Yeah Yeah, right. Here's what they did. I know when it can argue. Here's what here's the desert, right?

But behaviorism is, you know, very dull right?

It's a YouTube topic. So so yeah, exactly and I think looking at sort of the the I

Mean, how do you approach it?

Right because and I guess it sort of depends and so for the voice that you want to have

You know is a newer creator. I'm still finding my voice. I've put out lots of different things, you know

Reaction videos to very like hotly satisfying things or or you know, I've answered

questions of viewers

I've I mean, I'm sort of playing with lots of different things I think for your channel is a great example

You found a nice rhythm

You know

And I know that most channels will really you'll find a rhythm and I'm still finding mine

And and so I've played with the the idea of you know

Can I take the positive spin highlight the positive things that are going on in popular youtubes?

you know youtubers and kind of in a way sort of using their notoriety and

Way to lift myself up because that seems to be the algorithms

you know thing that they like that Albert of the mics and I mean that's been like a relative success so far, but

You know, it's it's it's hard for a new creator coming into this to say, you know

It's at first as a mental health because it's already nice, you know, but then as a new creator who in you know

YouTube is like you can spend a lot of time a lot of hours carving out these things and so, you know

I guess on some level

the ethics of it all are still up in the air, but and also, you know

Where is that line and I know that you did a nice use a recent interview where you kind of interrogated this idea, right?

She explored this idea of where is that line? And where can we as youtubers and middle health youtubers make

the most menacing progress or

or

Impact right and kind of using that line and you talked a lot about commenting on the mental status of things

And of course avoiding diagnosis, yeah. Well, you know, it's this is

Kind of kind of what happens you're talking about the drama channels and and I agree

This isn't certainly not to impugn them or judge them. They actually do what they do very well

No one could argue that in a sense. They're really a driver, right?

They they find an idea that idea echoes throughout all the drama channels and they and they drive it

They make it into something that then can pull in views. So in a sense, you know as

non drama creators

Sometimes we can throw our lasso around that bull right and and get pulled for a while

But it's you know, when you when you mess with the bull you have to worry about the horns right as that place goes

so

You know, it puts us in a tough spot. There's there's what's ethical

What we're allowed to do and my guesses were allowed to do a lot more than we are

And then there's what do we want to do? Like how far do we want to engage?

You know into this into this realm and and that's really I think

Ultimately, if you look at ethics, I mean, that would be the real struggle, right?

It's you have the ethics that are imposed on you which we agree to follow but then you have those internal ethics

that say I don't know if this is just

My brand I don't know if this is my professional value coming through right? I mean you could make a

Fair argument that what phil mcgraw does. I mean, he's not bound by any licensing board

So in terms of like the ethics of TV, he's probably in line with that

Mm-hmm, but does it feel does it feel satisfying right? And if you look at the drama channels, they're not bound by any ethics

So I mean, you know again they can kind of do more or less whatever they want

And they've had they have good success using that flexibility to be creative

We're driving in a much

More narrow lane of the highway

Right, they have like a runway sized lane. And and we have one that's like eight and a half feet, you know or whatever

And and we have very little maneuvering we can really do and I feel like the closer we get to what they do

You you start to lose credibility

You start to offend people at a higher proportion, right all videos are gonna offend somebody but you know a tire proportion yeah, yeah

It's a difficult balance

but the same

I can see the other side of the argument which I think is what you were kind of speaking to which is if we're going

to be relevant, but if we're going to be in a sense YouTube

Popular famous or successful whatever that means. Hmm. We have to get in the game and play right?

we have to put the gloves on and start swinging and

How you know, how do we do that? That's the that's the challenge. Yeah, I agree with you and I think

You know, it's because I you know, I have this sort of I'm rather contemptuous of the ivory tower

Sort of notion amongst

You know mental health folks. I don't sense that from you at all, you know

But there is the sense that why I have license and I can diagnose and these sorts of things and you know

And then we sort of we isolate ourselves. We insulate ourselves and then we wonder why there's a stigma we wonder why there's a

You know clients aren't showing up or whatever the case may be

You know

It's because we've isolated ourselves so much as a as a field of profession at some level that we're because we're so afraid of either

being unethical or that were so up our own tailpipe in a way that we you know,

nothing, we can't be touched that you just simply wouldn't understand or whatever, you know, the sensibility might be and so I

and I haven't had to had this in my

Struggle in myself as a clinician for years is I want to engage that new modalities new things, you know

Like for instance with like texting missus or message therapy or me, you know, these are the sort of online platforms and things

You know, I am super my myers-briggs we've talked about my myers-briggs is open to new ideas. I love ideal. I love you

I love you know, it's part of the reason why I love YouTube and why I've been sort of in

Enamored with what I'm you know, my channel now is its new is fascinating, you know, I want to see how things work

And so I'm interested in that for mental health. Whereas the field that seems very

hesitant to change very hesitant to engage

You know and rather I don't know

I'd say risky things right now, of course doctor feels sort of being the way other opposite side of that

But we're so I mean, it's like a pendulum right? We're so way over here even if inch over a little bit

We're still not him. Right right. And so for me, it's a it's this constant sort of

Intellectual struggle to understand and to push things a little bit to see what's on the other side, you know

Can we engage people that don't necessarily?

Think you know about mental health at the top of their list, you know

Or something like that

and and can I poke my colleagues in a direction that's towards progress because we as

Therapists can get very staunch and very stuck in our ways

And and so I mean that's sort of my professional debacle. Yeah

I was thinking you know

I'm used to arguing this from the side that I'm on

Right, which is I mean in terms of YouTube performance conservative right when I make a video

I like it to be relatively conservative in terms. Like I'm not taking chances not conservative like

Democrat Republican, right

But conservative, you know what I mean? So if I was to argue this from the other side, you could actually make a case

I think for the will call the pursuit of drama right or the harnessing of the power of drama

And it would be that in this goes back to the ivory tower you were talking about before like

We both know a lot of technical terms

mmm

right

And if we were like really narcissistic and we were treating a client we could speak in a language that they probably wouldn't understand

Because we could keep it all highly technical very, you know, scientific and deliberately out of their reach, right?

Which is not a good way to communicate with a client. It's not productive. It's arrogant and it doesn't do the client any good

so most counselors recognize that you have to

Translate into a language that the client will understand. Right, right

Not that they're in a lower position or anything

But just speak in a way that they'll they'll understand you

Right, right when you relate stories like when you hear a story and you relate a story back and you kind of reflect

You're using the analogies they bring up you're using their life situation, right?

So if they're really into cars

Or whatever you can make an analogy about cars if they're really into like if they work at a restaurant you can make a restaurant

Analogy. Alright, so maybe maybe YouTube drama channels, you know, maybe that's a language

right and maybe by being

More traumatic like chasing those themes. We're we're not only reaching a new audience

We're more effectively communicating with a new audience because we're speaking a language. They already totally yet, right

I love that. Yeah, and I love that and it's sort of stumbling on that, you know in in in stumbling on the

you-know-what because that it's cutting edge, right and it's gonna make and

Cutting edge is sharp and Kym

some people can get cut and so I absolutely love that the analogy of language and I think speaking to a

you know speaking to folks that are using their language and then like you said this earlier you said the drama the drama channels are

canta, quote-unquote are

very good at sniffing out the trends sniffing out the I

Don't know the the the the stuff that people are gonna be interested in or wanting to know

And we as counselors, we're not as we're always a step behind. We're trained to be sort of behind the client

Generally, we're not ahead step ahead. See so we're always a little late to the party anyway

and so

and I'd love that you said that because it's it's it's an interesting opportunity for us to reflect as a profession or as professionals and

And Gokhale is where we are or do we have flexibility in where we are

Do we need to be ahead of the client?

Sometimes we need to be behind we need to be beside, you know, and are we using the language?

to educate in to engage

And then you know, where are we getting stuck in our every terror and I think a healthy self assessment

You know is always a good indicator of kind of one

I think it's shows humility because I think we as a profession again can get in our ivory towers and you get these

You know behind our ethics and that's that that's what it is and nobody nobody knows anything

But then also it keeps us moving forward and it's you know, it's like okay, we don't know where the line is

But we can inch towards one

It's there, right if we'd so that's almost as if you're sort of chopping through the jungle right? Where is where is it at?

And I love that and I think because I do I hate I don't

Hesitate to throw away and I said this is my response videos. I hesitate to throw that away because it is so powerful

There's something there that we can use and I think the language piece is one and the ideas like you talked about

Where is another one?

yeah there certainly I mean

There's something to be said for success not success as any cost, but success

right and the the dramatically oriented channels are very

Successful. Mmm, right they have tapped into the interest of people that are watching a lot of people are watching YouTube

So yeah, I I agree. There's a

There's a kind of an uncharted

Frontier ahead of us and it will be somebody that that responsibly kind of moves toward that boundary, right?

You know, maybe it'll be you

This drama channels work day and night

Well, I have to give them credit their to their work ethic yeah, I agree it's impressive

Alright, so we had a few connectivity issues here some internet problems which are inherent with this type of video unfortunately, but I apologize

we were talking about the

kind of drama

Channels and just the dramatic content and general covered a lot of territory to have any thoughts before we wrap up mate

Oh, no first I appreciate it. I think's for technical issues

I for some reason if I don't know, I may be I live in an 80s here and my Internet's not particularly

Reliable, but anyway, Noah nothing

I think the sort of final thoughts are just identifying and realizing that the drama channels do have some value and that they do

Better for worse shape the conversations that we're having on YouTube and I think mental health providers

Particularly mental health channels on YouTube should be cognizant should be aware should be

Recognition of like the purpose of it, but then also that we are exercising that discretion

right and exercising and because with great power comes great responsibility, right super

And that's yeah, absolutely Uncle Ben. And so that's there's never more of an evident

Example of that philosophy than it is with this

So that's sort of my final thought is just that you know

I love that you talked about there identifying the heavy ideas. They're using the language

and and that we should be aware of it, but also

Exercise the discretion and ultimately. Yeah, that's kind of it. Great. Great. Well a discussion

I'm sure we can pick up again some day

we kind of see how YouTube evolved zand how our channels evolved and

Certainly, if anybody has any thoughts about this video, please put those in the comments

I'll put all the information for Nate's channel down the description. So I would recommend checking that out Nate. Thanks for joining me today

Thank you very much. I appreciate your time. Thank you. Everybody. I'll see you soon