Published June 11, 2023, 12:20 p.m. by Liam Bradley
The Short List is a film festival for everyone. On the first Thursday of every month, we’re airing a brand new documentary on the vice YouTube. Tune in this Thursday March 3rd to watch the first film in our series, a fiery and urgent documentary portrait of downtown New York City artist, writer, photographer, and activist David wojnarowicz.
A fiercely political, unapologetically queer artist, David wojnarowicz was especially critical of mainstream indifference to AIDS, the epidemic that would take his life at age 37. Exclusive access to his breathtaking body of work – including paintings, journals, and films – reveals how wojnarowicz emptied his life into his art and activism. Rediscovered answering machine tape recordings and intimate recollections from Fran Lebowitz, Gracie Mansion, Peter Hujar, and other friends and family help present a stirring portrait of this fiercely political, unapologetically queer artist.
wojnarowicz: F**k You F*ggot F**ker premieres at 2pm PT / 5pm ET / 10pm GMT on March 3rd, followed by an interview with Director Chris McKim.
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[Music]
and realizing i got nothing left to lose
in my actions i let my hands become
weapons my teeth become weapons every
bone and muscle and fiber and ounce of
blood become weapons and i feel prepared
for the rest of my life today we're
screening moynirovic oh i should
have had that record he was a super
important artist
writer thinker and activist as each
t-cell disappears from my body it's
replaced by 10 pounds of pressure 10
pounds of rage he fought against the
system at the height of the aids
epidemic in the 80s and i can't believe
i had no idea who this guy was until
watching this film a bunch of us went to
jail david escaped
finally crafted using moynirovich's own
recordings phone messages and writings
it's a film that needs to be seen stick
around after and we'll talk to the
filmmaker
directed by chris mckim
here's waynerovich
so
[Music]
testing one two three
testing one two
testing testing testing testing testing
tests
[Music]
[Applause]
we rise to greet the state
to confront the state
when i was diagnosed with this
it virus take me long to realize i'd
contracted a diseased society as well
[Applause]
[Laughter]
it could be construed as critical but if
you're doing a show of aids there's
absolutely no way that you can separate
politics from aids here's what's
happening as we update our top stories
from east germany today took down the
berlin wall bottom line is i may be
dying of aids in america 1989 isn't that
political
i don't have health insurance and that i
don't have economic access to adequate
health care isn't that political
and to try to pretend that the subject
of aids cannot have
a political tinge to it is ridiculous
who was that
john mckenzie who's putting this up
together for pete or something of uh
world news
peter jennings yeah i mean like national
news yeah
oh i should have had that record
are you recording all of this today yeah
i mean you're going to make art out of
it tonight a manhattan art exhibit about
aids is losing a lot of federal money
because of what will be shown in the
exhibit the chairman of the nea states
we find that a large portion of the
content is political rather than
artistic in nature some of the content
includes criticism of cardinal o'connor
senator william danimeyer of california
and senator jesse helms for their
support of the new restrictive law thank
you this weather is certainly no work of
art so are you gonna do nightline
tonight uh
i somehow just can't see it i mean do
you think you'd put on a shirt if you
did well that's what i was thinking of
already my wardrobe i mean i if i did i
i might wear a ski mask
and uh you know
carry a bucket of gasoline
from philadelphia i'm terry gross with
fresh air
the art of david vornirovich has
recently been at the center of
controversy because the subject matter
deals with sexuality and aids
let's talk about how you started making
art now you came from a really rough
family background your your father
abused your mother you ended up in an
orphanage for a while then your father
kidnapped you from the orphanage
and you've written that you later threw
yourself into sex and you became a
hustler for a while how did you start
making art
[Music]
whatever work i've done it's always been
informed by what i experienced as an
american in this country as a homosexual
in this country as a person who's
legislated into silence in this country
one two three four civil rights or civil
war i'm not gonna be polite and
these people that want me to be
courageous there's no expression in that
other than silence as each t-cell
disappears from my body it's replaced by
10 pounds of pressure 10 pounds of rage
i tried very hard to be normal and tried
very hard to be accepted on some level
it's a terrific waste of time
buena robins
you
david was two years younger than me and
pat was sort of the big girl i don't
remember him ever
aspiring to do art or to be a doctor or
a lawyer or anything else i think we
were probably too consumed with trying
to survive at any given moment than to
be worried about what was going down the
road
dave and i used to go out in the woods
to get away from my father
he was horrific when he was drunk
i grew up in a tiny version of hell
called the suburbs i had a father who
brutalized both the first and second
wise physical violence any signs of life
in the family who supported with his
paycheck from his job as a sailor was
met with extreme violence in the
universe of the forest i didn't think of
what it felt like as a five or six year
old being dragged out of basement stairs
and had my head and body hit with a dog
chain or a sawed-off chunk of two by
four in my home one could not laugh one
could not express boredom one could not
cry one could not play one could not
explore one could not engage in any
activity that showed development or
growth that was independent
this life on the streets got really
rough and david ended up in a halfway
house he had not graduated from high
school at that point
when he finally went back to school was
when he discovered rambo and janae
they both
are outlaws and rebels and he always
identified with outsiders his whole life
and these were the outsider writers
testing tape journal one two three
[Music]
oh looks like we ended up in jamestown
north dakota
past the halfway mark between east and
west
feels like something out of an old west
picture
dusty roads and old board buildings
little family houses all around you
grades stretches the sky
long lines of trains the tracks when you
look at it just shimmer
it looks like thousands of little
animals running across
and there's the constant flapping of
bird wings like
occasionally hear a train whistle miles
away but
the trains never seem to get here
that was doggy french for uh high pin
heads uh i'm just sitting here in my
sister's apartment using her tape
recorder trying to figure out what the
hell to say
[Music]
as far as publishing uh forget it the
last woman that i sent the manuscript to
this woman and black son la soleil noir
called me up like after month and told
me she wanted to return my manuscript
you know she said that the people in the
monologues were wasted lives and it was
a waste of time to write about them
i mean everything she said just
reinforced my belief of its importance
it's like that i mean it's like the the
galleries too the stuff that i work on
takes so long to do that the price that
i'd have to ask if i was gonna make a
living off is just too much especially
since your tastes gravitate towards so
woolworthy and prince
i've been having like just tons and tons
of dreams of america and american road
and highways i really miss energy in new
york
paris gives you a sense of strange
security which does make me happy so i
guess i'll say goodbye here
[Music]
bye
ah
[Music]
[Music]
i was doing a series of photographs uh
martha rambo in new york
i got a job in an ad agency for all of
two and a half weeks operating a staff
machine then i ended up doing all my
homework
i started this face of arthur rambo blew
it up it made a flat mask
riding subways wandering all through the
warehouse hustling at times
david was taking brembo through what was
his world in new york
i grew up as a hustler i grew up
hustling in times square and all sorts
of places all around new york
man of
all different descriptions
[Music]
and just take off and end up getting
picked up by some guy in the sun or you
know whatever
by the time i got off the streets when i
was about 17 or 18 i had to turn to
making things because i basically could
never
find a place to ever express what i had
experienced i remember one of the most
emotional experiences was one day being
picked up by this guy who was very
creepy
and i remember blind on this dirty bed
that was one of these cheap hotels and
this guy sucking my dick
his mouth was sticky and that he would
kiss my leg and there would be like this
gummy
kind of stuff on my leg and it was all
the stuff that i was really repulsed by
and not enough to not have a heart on i
remember feeling all this incredible
motion for this guy i just felt so sad
for him at some point like reached under
his arms and pulled them up to me and
kissed them on the mouth which is the
thing that i least wanted to do
he started weeping and just said
nobody's ever done that and ended up
giving me extra money and whatever which
i was quite happy with
there was a lot of violence it got
robbed just about every day you always
get shaken down by groups of kids or
champions
it's like a whole experience of living
on the streets when i ran away from home
of feeling the world set up in such a
way that it seems
that i'm constantly working against it
rather than
alongside
most guys that i meet their lives are
just so completely different you know
there's there's no real communication
where i can feel totally free and
expressing my ideas and my desires and
my experiences
my experiences as a hustler seems to be
one thing that sits on the back of my
shoulder
one thing that's incredibly hard to
convey to people is the level of
promiscuity of that era this is
something that's really hard to describe
people younger we thought sex was good
for you that what was bad for you is not
having sex and what was bad for you was
repression of sexuality that was bad
this is before aids or before we were
aware of those
i grew up in north carolina and when i
first moved to the east village
it was cliche things you see in the
movies and drug dealing places
dealers standing around selling coke and
coke and dope cnd
people sandy how much the rest of
america hated new york we were a bunch
of junkies and suckers as far as
america was concerned and there was a
real sense of cultural decline
there had been this huge shift between
the kind of idealisms of the 60s and the
first civil rights movement the anti-war
movement all these things had derailed
by the mid 70s
and so we were responding to that in
different ways
i walked up to the park and the streets
were completely empty and traffic was
non-existent
i opened up my pants
and i walked up and down the pathways
and there's just like this really quiet
sort of loneliness there
i mean i felt like it was like you know
back where it started from
i've been filled with this sense of
of
anxiousness and the fact that i'm 26 and
thinking about myself and my values my
actions and thinking about the effect of
people on people wondering if any of
it's
meaningful if it's futile
trying to figure out what it is that my
life is and where i've been going
[Music]
this is a man whose time has come a man
whose principles have been familiar to
americans for 30 years a man whose
accomplishments make him the natural
choice for president of the united
states we will
make america great again
thank you very much
reagan is the president of this country
now
going through a time in my life that
seems desperate surreal awful and
slightly wondrous all simultaneously
met a fellow a month or so ago peter
hujar photographer who
in some interesting ways is like a
mirror of scenes i'm entering
he has the same desperate and at times
confused outlook
but mine is the one seat of hope that i
have in me
the relationship between peter and david
is one of the most
interesting
relationships between artists
in a very long time
more interesting than
van gogh and gilgame
very
very special and unique
when peter started his career as a
photographer in the 50s it was not
considered a real art form his
photographs were mostly portraits mostly
of people he knew but he did know some
rather famous people you know he's truly
an artist but peter was very difficult
and in terms of having a career he was
not very good at it
these worlds were very small
the new york art world fit in one
restaurant one restaurant okay i heard a
peter before i met him the number of
people who would have heard of peter you
know
12.
he may have been a saint on avenue a but
it was underground thing
he did not have that standing in the
quote real art world he was stranded
nothing was going nowhere
how do you go holy dough
this is huge arena again
i was wondering if david's steam
vegetable was there this is peter
fast juice
[Music]
peter last night in the bar when i told
him about doing her portfolio and
throwing out all the drawings that i
thought were aggressive or upsetting
told me not to throw out any drawings
no matter what my taste is and what my
ideas are if i feel it's good and it'll
be somebody who will pick up on it
i shouldn't start compromising and
trying to adapt to other people's tastes
and last night i was standing around
here at five six in the morning
looking through the portfolio looking at
my photographs
[Music]
i was really startled it was like the
first time that i sat down and really
looked at them in ages since i did them
and i realized that they are good
[Music]
and that there's absolutely no reason
for me to deny them or throw them away
they're my life and i don't know what to
anybody to distort that
just for their comfort
i think that everything
david
thought an artist could and should be
was embodied by peter
and peter was
the purest
of the law
[Music]
peter had tremendous respect
for anyone else who had that same drive
called them those people
and those people were
special
he was a tough judge
and when he discovered david he realized
he's one of them
this guy is one of them
he's talented in a chaotic way and peter
saw right away both the talent and the
chaos
when peter first met david and talked
about him i pays your attention to peter
about this zero i didn't pay that much
attention to the people i was sleeping
with i don't know why i should pay
attention to the people that peter was
sleeping with
i was under the impression that he was a
teenager because he had that band called
like fourteen still three or three teens
killed four which of course i never
heard of
this story about three teens playing for
the first time it has to do with dancing
teary being shut down and not having a
liquor license
gage and i were bus boys at dance
security we worked together it was an
interesting crowd of people
caring was a boy there too and madonna
was hanging out
they advertised having a full bar until
eight in the morning in the times mind
[Music]
we were raided a bunch of us went to
jail david escaped
and then he had concocted a molotov
cocktail from him to blow up the police
vehicle
but we couldn't figure out how to do it
without you know hurting people
we spent the night in jail
and then glamorized that event you know
we put on a show
now i don't know why we thought we
needed a benefit for fun
because the mob paid for the
lawyers who got our cases to smith
jerry a little more volume on the drums
anyway we had a benefit so we threw
together that three teams killed four
[Applause]
[Music]
so after we played the first gig
jesse and i and david wanted to continue
it
i knew their drummer had fallen out i
went and bought a rhythm machine because
i didn't know how to play anything i
thought well i can push buttons so i did
that
i don't think any of us are very
proficient but it wasn't really the
point
it was an effort to not really
necessarily make music but to have a
film almost for your ears
we ended up calling it the cacophonic
barrage
supposed to music
we were really ahead of our time with
the use of samples and
that was david's instrument david would
come up to a mic with his handheld tape
recorder and blast sounds
[Music]
a revolver made all men six feet tall
i heard a rumor that frank zappa was in
the audience one time when we played and
he said that we used the tapes like lead
guitar
which i thought was a great comment
there was a time in america
that if a quote unquote glory hole
appeared
the police would throw them in jail
morrow's churches
limp-wristed scissors
david wasn't really of the art world at
that point in time he was just an
individual that was doing his thing he
used to come over to my house to make
art
because there was more room in my house
than in his house which is funny because
i had a tiny east village apartment with
the bathtub in the kitchen and the
toilet in the hallway
we would get on the floor and make
stencils and posters for the band
[Music]
you
so i started thinking about more
permanent things and i started going
down the street
i put up images around after place along
8th street
but i didn't have any intention of being
a street artist
i was just being provocative
ready on the firing line
all night i went downtown and hit every
gallery door i could find
with images of the burning house the
plane and the figure
it was an aggressive thing
and the idea of new york city streets
filled with soldiers
that kind of tense atmosphere
i was just a rabid fan of david he was
pretty obscure at that time
but i knew about the piece him and julie
hare did when leo costelli building
the shrine to contemporary art at that
time julian and i wanted to do a series
of action installations which were
basically uninvited installations
we wanted to open up what culture was to
us
as opposed to what was handled by rich
white people
i don't really remember any planning
stages of this but
we went to the west side where all the
butchers were the meat packing district
which used to be a meat packing district
um you wouldn't ever want to go there
because the smell of blood from the
actually butchering and packing meat
there were big cans outside of the
butchers with giant cow bones in them
so we got a bunch of bones
we put them in this little wagon
we brought a couple hundred pounds of
bloody cow bones dumped them into the
staircase
did a stencil painting with spray paint
of an empty plate a knife and a fork
and then military bombers houses and
flames and figures were coiling on the
wall and then left they stenciled the
despair of new york at that time and
then they pour gallons and gallons of
cow's blood down the stairs
nobody seemed to think anything was a
myth
i imagine they thought it was just part
of the art world
[Music]
six months later i was still doing stuff
in the street
that's when somebody approached me from
one of the galleries and asked me if i
wanted to put a painting on one of the
shows so i said sure
david ends up in a show with people like
julian schnabel and david hockney and
lots of people who are famous he was
completely unknown
a lot of artists were doing graffiti in
east village keith herring and basquiat
and david was doing it
there were no resources like now you can
go down to the lower east side and
there's like a dozen young galleries
you've never heard of that are showing
stuff there was nothing
there was soho
and there was uptown and there were
these established galleries
we didn't feel we had any entree into
there so we created space so we could
show our work and have fun
dean savard and i started the gallery
through a series of one night parties
there was no real intention of making
any money we would put the yard up for
one night we'd invite friends sit around
on the floor drinking beer smoking pot
talking about art
when my gallery first started had gotten
i think 200 back from my taxes and i
thought oh let's have a party
i had photographs in my bathroom and my
bathroom was a toilet and three walls
because the bathtub was in the kitchen
that was the lou division the gracie
manchester gallery lou division l-o-o
never did i think that anybody would
show up after the party
eventually we decided that oh we'll
leave the art up for a little longer we
were really drawn to david's
militaristic imagery
we decided that we would put him into a
group show
[Music]
we put this
really large painting that david did it
was one of the most unusual things i had
seen an artist do expressing what was
going on around us at the time where
mankind stood at that point where
self-annihilation could occur
we were actually trying to sell the work
i'm trying to remember how much we were
asking for i think probably around five
thousand dollars
of course we didn't sell it because
nobody was coming into the gallery with
that kind of money back then
the interesting thing about these
village though when they were artists
that were really kind of special
everybody knew about it or they'd be
this buzz about it so there was a little
bit of buzz about david he had that book
sounds in the distance which came out
and i was so impressed because on the
back it had blur by william burrows and
i was like oh my god this artist must be
really incredible because william
burrows wrote something about it
when we did the famous show which was in
82 we were looking for portraits of
famous people by famous and soon to be
famous artists
david brought in this painting peter
hujar dreaming about yushio mishima and
saint sebastian at the last minute after
everything was already up on the wall
typical typical
there was like no space because there
were so many people and he had a really
big piece so where are you going to put
a really big piece of hanging from the
ceiling that's why i love this
photograph of the opening where you
can't really see any of the art but you
can see david's piece because it's on
the ceiling
early images were all very simple images
but i just wanted to record things that
i didn't see people recording and
painting at that time
you know i want to
record my own history or a different
history
and that's what painting originally was
for me all the paintings are diaries
that i always thought as proof of my own
existence
[Music]
[Applause]
[Music]
confirmed a short time later that the
president had indeed been shot
the president was shot once
in the left chest the bullet entered
from the left side
he is in stable condition mrs reagan
rushed to the hospital and the president
jokingly told her honey i forgot to duck
it could be misconstrued that one is
celebrating reagan's assassination
attempt but his media critique he was
wheeled into surgery
[Music]
had a song called hunger which was about
the underclass and disparity wealth in
this
country i see these things every day
every
[Music]
day
[Music]
images dreams
last night i ran into brian and jesse
discovered them to be in a big
discussion about the politics of clubs
and politics of
[Music]
i just did not want to hear it
when you're trying to do a job
and support yourself and be able to do
things that you feel are really
important
there were lots of different reasons why
he wanted to leave and and
he wanted to do painting he wanted to
have more control over what he was doing
i remember having an argument with david
he said to me i can't really be friends
with someone who doesn't like what i do
artistically i said well david there's a
lot of your art that i don't like
there's a lot of that anger that i don't
relate to and don't necessarily want to
collaborate with
[Music]
hi this is helen of troy calling from
poughkeepsie
oh got you on that one ha ha goodbye
hi this is cjr i was just checking to
see whether you're in your places
painterliness why
david came over to our place early one
morning
he said you guys got to come to this
huge pier with all these walls and
there's nobody there
we had to slip under a chain-link fence
got into the building and it was
really impressive remarkable space
for years been abandoned like a couple
football fields in size
the idea was for artists to
make work there surreptitiously
it was very adventurous and illegal and
that was very much connected to david's
knowledge of the peers as a place for
sexual trysts and that whole subculture
around it and in a way they kind of
spoiled that spot and we could go there
for their acts anymore because there
were too many people traipsing through
the ground floor
was thousands of square feet with very
high ceilings
and upstairs there were rooms
david and i found
piles of
discarded
files
psychological evaluations from bellevue
they had them draw pictures of men and
women and you know most were very very
loose you know it's like how you drew in
elementary school or something like that
and then others were sort of more
you would say like
sophisticated or this or that but they
were very emotional and had a great deal
of resonance in them
hi david
i think you've got my squeegee for silk
screening and i need it okay
i was doing a lot of silk screening then
and i taught him how to make silk
screens
so we decided to use these images and
make a
collaboration
the first time i met david it wasn't
physically
it was more mind to mind like a
vibration
it was summer 83 i wasn't involved in
the art scene but one day there's a
french photographer who came to visit
new york
and he said
did you hear about the abandoned pier
where all these artists go and paint on
the walls and do things and i say no
he took me there
i fell in love with that place you know
it was like
so deathly romantic
one day somebody told me the story of
this artist david wanarowicz who opened
the place
and i remember right away i had a crush
on this guy i thought this guy must
really be great you know to open a place
like that to call people to come and
collaborate and paint
for me he was already somebody
special
in the end you know hundreds of artists
were doing things there and french
fashion magazines were doing shoots in
there
it got so big the police came
they closed it down
the whole magic was lost
[Music]
they started tearing it down
and i have a picture of the gagging cow
of david's while the pier is being
pulled down
then the pier disappeared into the river
and was was gone
the east village scene exploded at the
same time
it wasn't until david had his first solo
exhibition for us that everything broke
loose
the first exhibition was very
interesting in a sense that it was
something nobody had really seen before
painting things that weren't really
intended to be painted on he stenciled
images over supermarket posters
trash can lids
driftwood everything was about something
that was found and didn't cost anything
because again nobody had any money there
was that exhibition
that grace glueck the new york times art
critic rode up on our bicycle and
started looking at the artwork asking us
about the artist and asked for a
photograph of one of david's pieces
grace blewett showed up and was really a
joke to us that she wanted writing
something and so for us it was very
tongue-in-cheek you know did these very
serious interviews and she went around
to other galleries like crazies and
suddenly boom an article appeared in the
sunday lifestyle section of the new york
times it talked about the galleries in
the east village david's artwork it was
after that the collectors really started
coming down
this limousine pulls up in front of our
little gritty drug infested street
robert pincus whitten who's an art
critic in new york and a very elegant
woman comes into the gallery they look
at each piece examining robert's
whispering in her ear soon after he said
we'll take this one this one this one
and this one we'll take that one over
there and it was like oh my god i
practically ran over the pyramid and
david and dean were having a beer i said
oh my god we sold so much work it was
such a euphoric feeling
all of a sudden the art worlds gave this
east village scene it's 15 minutes famed
our neighborhood now the sudden had 60
galleries in it and that people were
coming by in limousines
you we were going
around the gallery putting the names on
these little stickers on the wall
and what's the name of this one and
david said you
there's a piece of torn paper that david
found on the street that somebody had
written this homophobic slur on
i've said david that's so offensive do
we have to call it that david was like
that's the name it's gonna stick
you i walked in and
the painting just riveted me it's
two boys kissing over a map
and then on the four corners there's
brian butterick posing as saint
sebastian and there was david posing in
the christadora
i said i'll give you three thousand
dollars and he said sure
back then 1984 that was a lot of money
but it's been a prized possession since
then
hi david it's marissa prison rape is
back it just walked in the door from
montreal so could you come pick it up as
soon as possible thank you
i think a lot of the reason david is
important now is because people
recognize emergent queer sensibility in
david i'm not gay as in i love you i'm
queer as in off
everything i did with david
was collaboration but the concept of it
has always been david he proposed to
make a poster about being queer in
america
david knew a place under the brooklyn
bridge we went there with the track i
put some blood on david's face
we lit a scene with the lights of the
truck and we took the photo
i went through the dark room and i
started printing the photo it scared me
it really scared me to see this image of
david bitter coming under the chemicals
it looks so real a number of months ago
i read the newspaper that there was a
supreme court ruling
which states that homosexuals in america
have no constitutional rights against
the government's invasion of their
privacy the paper stated only people who
are heterosexual or married or have
families can expect these constitutional
rights and realizing i got nothing left
to lose in my actions i let my hands
become weapons my teeth become weapons
every bone and muscle and fiber an ounce
of blood become weapons and i feel
prepared for the rest of my life
hi david it's gracie can you
give me a call at home about the whitney
85 was a big year
david had two major pieces in the
whitney biennial i mean that's amazing
everything happened really fast
hi i wanted to make sure somebody told
you you made the front page of the
washington post on sunday for the
biennial a big reproduction of your
piece okay
it was major for all of us to be
accepted in the bigger art world
but david wasn't like oh my god i got
into the whitney bay and not at all no
no i mean he really thought about
whether he wanted to do it
david has a certain kind of political
consciousness that plays into his work
who owns it where it's shown the whole
thing
he was not particularly thrilled about a
bunch of rich money capitalist people in
the whitney thinking that he was great
there's no gratification for that in him
and those people are very classy and
judgmental
he
wanted to be recognized by people that
would appreciate his work but the right
people for the right reasons
you know peter hujar had a lot of the
same attitude
the gallery system is one of the big
obstacles
to art yeah it's all about recently that
there's art stars there's people who
make tremendous amounts of money
overnight
art today it is a commercial product so
the people are doing art that looks like
art likely having a
product and i think that when an artist
perceives what he does as a product
he's in trouble does it i mean it's like
they turn into one many factories and
there's nothing human about it there's
no
there's no thing
hey david you know you're in new york
magazine they did a review at the
biennial and they reproduced your piece
but i also wanted to talk to you about
the minutiae okay bye-bye
adrian and robert mnuchin were two
collectors he was on wall street and she
had a cashmere store and her name was
adrian now it's like adriana or
something but anyway at that time she
was adrian they commissioned david and
it was the most money that david had
ever gotten for anything to do this big
installation in their basement
he needed the money so he was glad that
i had made this
sale but a part of him really
was very unhappy about it
david didn't really like rich people
so he took all this garbage off of the
street and put it into the installation
they were scouring all the vacant lots
to grab the nastiest they could
you know it looked like the plague could
descend upon their place basically
filled it with trash and made a
beautiful installation out of it but so
much of it just looked like tetanus
and it had bugs
adrian was like freaked out these bugs
were being brought into her pristine
brownstone
of course david loved he brought in more
david hi it's gracie i'm just checking
in seeing how everything's going with
the installation if you need any help
and what's up basically just a what's up
call
um
okay i want to talk to you okay bye-bye
so when you look at the photographs
peter hujar took of that installation it
was all garbage it was great like a lot
of figures
there was the burning child and there
was the big mural in the background
there was a tree and a lot of cow skulls
it was an incredible installation
well in retrospect that was mnuchin the
a-hole dealer whose son steve mnuchin is
is part of trump's cabinet these
they got really angry with that sudden
attention money being thrown out i mean
i was starving three years yeah and then
it suddenly crossed a line where what i
make is feeding me is it's giving me all
this stuff but then i have all this hate
about the structure of that because it's
so full of this is something that
rattled me i realized that i came out of
a totally violent up background
growing up as a kid came to new york
went on to the streets almost died on
the streets but once your economics are
taken care of once you don't no longer
have to struggle with abraham or
i don't know if you're home
or maybe you're sleeping
well the first thing i want to say is
that your paintings are fantastic i am
so impressed i'm so proud of you
i tried to take pictures but they
wouldn't let me use the flash and i
paddy was always close to david love you
a lot bye
even after we grew up we were completely
split up
so the first time i ever learned about
his artwork i picked up some magazines
and there was david in life magazine i
was so much in awe with saying wow look
where this guy is at you know
i finally found a way to get touch with
him it was an interesting thing to sit
down with him i came to new york and he
started spewing off about he was a child
prostitute he's gay
and i got the feeling that he
was testing me
i think he was afraid
that i would never accept him
being gay i just was glad that he was
okay
okay
i don't know if you need maps for your
artwork but i just threw out about 5 000
of them today i worked for aaa so he had
free maps whenever he needed him i'd
make sure he got him maybe i could save
me some money
okay bye
hey david this is richard i just wanted
to get together with you and talk about
making a movie or something like that
i'm up give me a buzz bye
it was one of those nights david and i
wanted to get high i said hey why don't
we try shooting ecstasy i've got some of
that
david and i got into this deep deep
conversation i said let's make a movie
where we try to figure out why young
people are the way they are the punks
and all that stuff and just shout quick
movie i think we did in a day david
played the father karen finley played
the mother it ended up being a lot of
things from david's childhood he
definitely had the most up
stories
stop playing with your food
you call this food look it isn't even
cooked it's all bloody shut up
david said that when he was a kid they
had a rabbit my father got us rabbits
and he said he gave away the rabbits and
then
patty found out somehow that he hadn't
butchered him we wanted to beat our pet
rabbit which i think was horrific and it
really bothered david too you know what
this is
see that that's my bunny what are you
doing to it and you know what this is
david finally was starting to deal with
what had happened to him during his
childhood
he started using heroin
it was almost
a social drug in the east village
i had some junk that i had laying around
so i did it in the bathroom
the light and everything just started
making me feel sick
david took drugs in a way that peter was
sure would destroy him and peter knew
too much
about the way artists can sabotage
themselves to let that go one step
further
at some point peter said david what are
those marks on your arm
he tells nothing he said don't tell me
it's nothing and you are going to stop
taking heroin
today
right now
you will never take it again as long as
you live
and if you do i will never speak to you
again
you will be dead to me
david started crying and he'd stopped
heroin
he never took it again because peter was
the most important relationship in his
life
they first had an affair but i don't
think that lasted that long
and then they were friends but at a
certain point i really thought of david
as peter's son
peter didn't think of miss peterson and
probably david didn't but to me that's
what it seemed like well what else can
we talk about
what was the great love of your life
what was it was
i mean the great love of my life is my
work
i don't think i've ever had one
i don't know
[Music]
i met david at the bijou theater
which was a gay porn theater
our eyes met and we
went to the bathroom and had a little
bit of sex and i said why don't you come
over to my apartment
which i rarely did with people that i
met there but i was just fascinated with
this guy
we left and i asked david what he did
and he said he was a painter and i said
what of houses
and he said no no no i paint things
apparently he was quite well known in
the east village and i didn't know who
he was i had no idea
so he came over and we had a
really sweet night he left me a little
painting that he did for me that i
really loved and we started seeing each
other
i felt my world was very different after
i met david i was totally
swept up with him so here i am
heading out into the cold winds of the
canyon streets walking down and across
avenue sea towards my home the smell and
the taste of them wrapped around my neck
and jaw like some scarf
and how it follows me in and out of
restaurants and past cops and early
morning children and past bakery windows
filled with brides and grooms on rows
and rows and rows and endless wedding
cakes
hey juicy lips are you there
it's about 12 david kept talking about
this best friend of his that he had in
the east village and we had to go see
him and his name was peter and peter and
all of a sudden i said
are you talking about peter hujar and he
said well how did you know that
odigo well i had a little affair in the
70s with peter for a month and i kept
thinking oh great peter's going to tell
him i'm an
but peter thought actually that i was
good for david you know that i could
help david i could be a
settling
kind of thing for him which actually
probably is true but they were so close
that it was
i couldn't even describe what that was
much different than our relationship and
i'm just trying to figure out where i
fit in his life he said i have three
priorities in this order peter my art
and you
but i had to find that to be okay it was
hard at first but
as i looked at it i realized there was
no threat there this was a whole other
thing
hi david this is carla wishing you a
happy new year
hi baby this is bridget i wanted to wish
you happy new year
holy joe hodie doe
it's the nuff er and the monks last
night were great you would have actually
loved them i think there were 10 of them
and they sang in voices that was like
no deeper than that
oh
no i can't do it
[Music]
it was really nice they did a healing
ceremony
well anyway that's all i have to say
goodbye
i took you to the doctor
i don't remember what was wrong with
peter how peter felt that made him have
the test
they didn't tell you there
it took two weeks for this test to come
back and
i remember very much that peter called
me
and i can't describe to you
i said
how are you and he goes fran and then he
made this sound like um
like a not a scream a kind of a scream
more it sounds to me like an animal
sound not like a human
to say his test came back possibly
when peter was diagnosed with aids i
came over 10 minutes later he went to
meet me at the door and there was some
mail that arrived and it fell on the
floor and i remember picking it up and
turning and just saying even something
like getting a piece of mail has an
entirely different meaning and from that
i constructed something
of what this man is facing
and i felt very sad i felt angry i felt
fear i felt a possibility my own
diagnosis
david was sitting at the table and he
was crying and i didn't know what was
going on and he told me that peter had
been diagnosed with aids
he was destroyed i mean it was so
emotional for him it was so upsetting
when peter was diagnosed david asked me
if i could help him
because peter really had no income he
had no money he had no reason he had
nothing and he didn't want to lose his
apartment
i worked as director of new york city's
aids program and it was through tom that
i met david
this was an epidemic of great
proportions
and the city ignored it for quite a
while
in fact everyone ignored it
[Music]
people with aids who were getting sick
and losing their jobs were coming to
apply for public assistance
because aids had a stigma already none
of the traditional systems in place
wanted anything to do with them the
staff wouldn't touch their paperwork
they often died before they got any
benefits at all
mayor koch finally decided that
something needed to be done he started a
very little program and i have to say we
probably broke every rule in the book
in order to get people what they needed
so i went over like a good paceworker
and i fell in love with him i mean he
was an amazing person i could certainly
ease a lot of his fears he couldn't
believe that he wouldn't lose his
apartment and he'd have some kind of
income
they're
happy easter eggs this is peter
cottontail
this is the ex peter cottontail
are you there
hello
was prone to great depression i mean he
never took a photo after his diagnosis
he gave it up entirely
[Music]
a couple times i did confront him
because i thought he was stuck
and that was the only time i allowed
myself to confront him when i thought
that he was just shutting down
and so full of rage
and not strong enough to express it
[Music]
i remember him threatening to throw
himself in front of a car because he was
mad and he didn't have the strength to
walk to the curb and throw himself in
front of the car
he talked about killing himself
endlessly brutally i want to go to that
building across the street and jump off
the roof and he'd say i'm going to do it
i'm gonna do it and he would say it
every day until one day we gave him a
number of a doctor he would give
medicine to kill himself and once i gave
him the number he tucked it away and
never spoke about killing himself again
david had like a huge career then when i
did the four elements we didn't sell a
thing it was over
art world is very fickle like that
once you start getting a certain amount
to something you have to keep it going
or it fizzles out
i had this naive sense that once people
supported work then
it doesn't just disappear that you know
that they'll watch what you do and
they'll take interest and they'll follow
it which isn't the case at all
it was the end of the east village scene
and
so-called east village art had just gone
out of style
hi there's the two jar i want to waited
a horse pistol to stay there for a while
i guess you can find my number by
calling the greeny hospital
goodbye
he lost weight
he had the beginnings of dementia
he just was kind of fading away
sitting in his hospital room so high up
in the upper reaches of the building and
leaning against the glass of the window
of his room i can see dizzily down into
the street
it's a gradual turn of the earth outside
the windows
i wonder what it is to fall such
distances
i'm afraid he's really dying
and he barely opens his eyes for more
than a few seconds
and his breath was coming in rapid fire
bursts like a machine gun
i turned from the silence in the window
and looked at him and an iris appears
beneath one half lifted eyelid
and strength pours right through me
and i turn away almost embarrassed
having as much life in me as he has
it was thanksgiving and i met david in
peter's room at the hospital
ethel eichelberger was there and
peter was in a coma i mean he really
wasn't responsive in any kind of way
we're all sitting there and ethel
says very quietly he's not breathing
anymore his chest isn't going up and
down
we called the nurse in
and the nurse said yes he had passed
and then david says could you all leave
me alone with him
if i could attach our blood vessels so
that we would become each other i would
if i could attach our blood vessels
in order to anchor you to the earth to
this present time
to me i would
it makes me weep to feel the history of
you
of your flesh beneath my hands
in a time of so much loss
it makes me weep
all these moments will be lost in time
like tears and rain
smell the flowers while you can
when peter died
i went out to dinner with anita and this
nurse he was talking about sometimes you
could tell somebody was infected because
they'd get a string of pearls along your
neck
which was glands it would swell up
so while i'm sitting there i run the
fingers down my neck and sure enough i
have a string of pearls swollen glands
i decided to get tested
came back positive
i had
pretty good t-cell at that point i
wasn't sick or anything
david he was very sympathetic and very
supportive but then at some point i said
you know you're being very supportive
but you don't know your status
the first time i saw david david had
markers of infection
oral candidized his thrush he didn't
have a competent immune system i don't
think this came as a shock to david
i just woke up
waking up every hour
or last
three four hours
so i was diagnosed with ark
sometime in the summer
now near the end of november
of living in peter's house peter hujar
as i couldn't afford to the other
apartment that i had
[Music]
david came back positive but his t-cells
were really ravaged
david asked dr friedman do i have so few
that i can name them
back then the magic number was 200 t
cells
if you could keep the patient at 200 t
cells or higher there'd be less
opportunistic infections
he had less than 100 when he was tested
so he was already in bad shape
peter hi
peter oh my god i'm looking at the name
what a
unbelievable
psychological slur this is gracie
calling for david
he came into the gallery and told us he
was very quiet about it i mean he came
in and he said that he'd just been
tested and he found out that he had
it was devastating for me i mean i felt
very protective of david
when keith herring came out about having
aids it just seemed like everybody had
to run buy something of his because he
was going to die of aids he had aids and
he was going to die it was so gross how
keith was treated and how everything
around him what that was all about and i
didn't want that for david i mean i knew
how private david was and so when he
told me my first reaction
was that we shouldn't tell anyone
which of course is the wrong response to
have with david that's when i
picked up the phone and called barry
blenderman and said you have to do this
retrospective now
like now
she was right in that this is what i do
books and retrospectives and i was an
avid fan of his work
i bought the painting you
back in 1984 there was an urgency
to do the show while he was alive
i wrote a grant to the nea got the grant
worth 15 000
and started working with david planning
the exhibition in the catalog
[Music]
i thought the phrase tongues of flame
was very appropriate it's a biblical
reference it's a reference to a play
it's a reference to a silent movie but
mostly tongues of flame i'm thinking
what an amazing orator he was i was
thinking about the burning child i was
thinking about the burning house the
incendiary aspect of it the passion
and it just seemed like everything that
was connected with david
was on fire
one of the things that happened after my
diagnosis is this thing of this may be
the last work i do so it's like trying
to focus everything and channel it into
the square or into this photograph or
into this thing that
it's all got to go in
all the anger all the emotions all the
thoughts
i'm working on a series of sex images
that take environments like the sky
the ocean
an airplane
train movements
a forest
and a superimposed
a circle that has
a very explicit sex act and most of them
are homosexual acts
[Music]
outside of the sex series a place sees
circular images
inside the field of painting and so for
me the circles are like cells and they
contain information
and i see them as microscopic
views so it's like looking into the
interior of something
like looking at a spot of blood and
seeing the cells
i also see them as telescopic views so
that you can be looking through a
telescope
and then that says something to me about
surveillance seeing something from a
distance i like the suggestions of all
those things
it's about discovery
and i use dreams in my work dreams are
very important to me i usually write
them down all the time the dreams are an
example of how the imagination can break
all boundaries
his iconography is based off this
profound sense he had that he could try
to look at the universe
everything organic
and everything man-made
all the delights and all the horrors and
trying to put them together
but every aspect of it would be deeply
personal
when peter died david took photographs
of the head
the hands and the feet there's a
tradition of
taking death mask of someone important
hands are important because they're how
you physically interact with the world
and then the feet i think are very
important
and that goes back to the old testament
and the new testament how do you greet
people you wash their hands but it's
more important you wash their feet
because that's what's anchoring you to
the world
you find that all the way through
classic spiritual literature
that iconic laying out of those images
incorporating them into peter who's are
dead with that text is really a call to
arms
i was diagnosed with ark recently and
this was after the last few years of
lose encounter the friends and neighbors
who've been dying slow vicious
unnecessary deaths because and
dikes and junkies are expendable in this
country and at the moment at the moment
i'm a 37 foot tall 1
172 pound man inside this six foot body
and all i can feel is the pressure all i
can feel is the pressure and the need
for relief
it's bad it's been too long and i want
you to know that i think of you and i
love you a lot and i hope all as well
last night i talked to my sister for the
first time in
seven months i think
told her about my diagnosis and
that was rough for me anyway i thought
she handled it pretty well
but then who knows
remember pat once saying to me you'll
never get age or something like that
because
i'm not one of those people that run
around have sex with everybody
family writing corrector
[Music]
okay
all right
after he had aids we were fine but there
came that day when i called him on the
phone when i told him our aunt helen was
coming to visit boy that sent him off
look if it comes up whether about my
girlfriend or if you have girlfriends
i'm going to tell them i'm homosexual
and if it comes up i'll tell them that i
have this virus
if it goes far enough i'll
confront him and ask him why the
they let the psychotic do this damage to
us all these years and not do a
thing about it and like talk
about their god and all this other
when they watch this guy what he did to
it i'm tired of living these lies with
these people and i'm tired of hiding
from these people because i'm afraid of
who i am or because i have problems with
who i am and i'm not going to go through
it anymore this is not the place i said
if you want to confront aunt helen
then go to detroit and confront her
but you're not coming here he went into
a rage that frightened me don't insult
me by inviting me to come after the
relatives leave that's right out of
sight okay get the out of our sight
until it's comfortable until we can deal
with you sitting here with your
homosexuality with your aides
yeah right sorry for myself i'm the one
who's dying
i'm the one who's got to
confront things before i go and that's
what i want to do i want to clear the
fear out of my head it was so painful to
me
the way that he and i interacted if i
could do it all over again i i try to do
it a little differently so are you
afraid to tell your children i have aids
and then he started saying oh your kids
know that you have a for a
brother that's not what i said i said
are you afraid to tell your kids i have
aids i said david they're young one's
three years old the other one's six it's
too messy for me to be in your
life so save it save it steven i don't
need this from you i don't need this
kind of insult i faces every day
and i don't need it from quote-unquote
family do you understand well it's a
conversation i'm steve we never see each
other again goodbye
and then i never saw him again
i was feeling pretty crazy recently
a lot of anxiety
at some point i realized i was just
afraid of dying
throughout all my life i've tried to
maintain some kind of complete control
of myself from where i've come from
all the scenes as kid hustling and all
the scenes in the streets and times i
came close to death in the times of a
nearly star
maybe need for self-control is to mask
this enormous rage
that a carrier may carry from all those
experiences
i guess i fear lost control that that
rage will spill and become
indiscriminate in terms of what it
attacks but really and truly i think i'm
afraid of losing my mind at some point
to some degenerative disease like
meningitis or seizures or whatever
don't want to
lose touch with words i want to be able
to provoke
some change in whatever limited fashion
in people in a person and i always had
this fantasy that if i were to ever
become ill and if i were to become so
weak that i couldn't leave the house
which is another fear for me
or at least be able to tap that
keyboard even if it's with a pencil held
between my teeth touching each key
letter for ladder
despite rage despite illness despite
pain i hope that my mind
continues
aids was revealing exactly what society
was about but was already there in his
work he knew already what the world was
about he knew the structure that
sustained power he knew the manipulation
of people who would like to live
differently so the illness became a
weapon against the politics of this
society when i was diagnosed with this
virus it didn't take me long to realize
i'd contracted a diseased society as
well
[Music]
thousands of demonstrators demand that
new york city do more to help those
suffering from aids
the scene evoked memories of the 60s
civil rights of civil war david and i
went to act up meetings
we marched with act up
[Applause]
on some level the most interesting thing
that they have is information of what
was happening in the hospitals
they were strapping minority babies to
beds and giving
half of them placebos
basically they're stealing these babies
from their parents
saying this is the only way your baby
can get treatment
sign this form
killing half of them purposefully with
placebos
that alone i thought was so outrageous
and all these information packages were
given to the media
i thought well jesus this will change
everything i mean how naive i was
[Applause]
[Music]
we went down to washington we knocked up
demonstrated with the fda
hundreds of angry demonstrators
effectively shut down the fda today
[Music]
[Applause]
[Music]
[Applause]
[Music]
demonstrators say the aids crisis and
the anger over it continue to grow every
day charging that the government
responds to the aids disease is woefully
inadequate they say the demonstrations
will continue
our group made these tombstones and then
laid down like we were dying
[Music]
so they arrested us
but it got headlines
photographs of the tombstones came up
many times
civil rights or civil war david got
arrested a couple more times
for my own taste i wish they would get a
little bit more violent express it a
little stronger
it's one of the few things that people
will respond to i'm waking up more and
more from daydreams of tip and amazonian
blow darts and infected blood and
spitting them at the exposed necklines
of certain politicians i'm not going to
be polite and these people that
want me to be courageous
you know i resent that oh how great he
was how courageous he was
all the way up to the end
there's no expression in that other than
silence
somebody once said to me that if you
spit a
piece on the sidewalk
it's nothing but if ten people or a
hundred people or a thousand people spit
their gum onto the same sidewalk people
have to deal with it they become stuck
in it when they walk through it
and i see that as part of a relationship
with art
when people put themselves on the line
in their work whether it's music writing
photography painting or whatever in
terms of culture with capital c they
apply a tiny amount of pressure
against the system
of control
that would willingly jump into fascism
if there wasn't enough pressure
on its throat
we are born into a pre-invented
existence within a tribal nation of
zombies
the government has a day-to-day job
maintaining an illusion of a one tribe
nation and inside that one tribe nation
there's actually
millions of tribes historically
minorities have always been expendable
in this country
historically art was made by certain
what i make in my work is a record of
things
that challenges
the record that we're given daily
whether through the newspapers
to the television or through the
[Music]
i were a violent politicians
i would go into the nation's capital and
start annihilating the people that i
believe responsible for this
pre-invented existence but the
originators are long dead
the way things are set in motion in
terms of society it's like a machine
that runs itself that can't stop it can
run by itself think by itself police
enforce its schools
raise all glory while we do it to him
again
[Applause]
cardinal connor has helped tens of
thousands of people to their unnecessary
deaths through the denial of pertinent
safe sex information he obviously
prefers coffins to condoms
this is jesus christ i am in front of st
patrick's cathedral on sunday we're here
reporting on a major aids activist and
abortion rights activist demonstration
inside cardinal o'connor is busy
spreading his lies and rumors about the
position of lesbians and gays they act
as if because there's this abstract idea
of what religion is of what god is that
this man is untouchable and he's not and
this church can be shut down the same
way he shuts down abortion clinics the
same way he prevents people getting
information or making personal decisions
about their life he can be shut down
there's a green light on the green
light's not on but let's see we had a
green light yeah so it's rolling yeah
east germany today took down the berlin
wall back at that time david had a big
body of work and it was really strong
stuff but
his career kind of flattened out
the publicity from his contribution to
the catalog for witnesses against our
vanishing and artist space was what
brought him to the national stage
and it wasn't for an artwork it was for
an essay but he wrote in the catalog i
i wouldn't say derogatory no i don't
think i'm i'm being that critical i
asked david to write for the catalog
there aren't such intense people in the
world anymore he was a genius which i
don't
use for anyone else i can think of
david's essay was talking about
how the imagination was the last
frontier
for creative freedom
[Music]
that in his imagination he can douse
jesse helms with gasoline and set his
putrid ass on fire i quote or throw
william danimeyer off the empire state
building
and made a reference to cardinal
o'connor
total enemy of the state called him that
fat cannibal in skirts
in the house of walking swastikas
now this didn't play well
with the establishment
tonight a manhattan art exhibit about
aids is losing a lot of federal money
because of what will be shown in the
exhibit the chairman of the nea states
we find that a large portion of the
content is political rather than
artistic in nature is the fact that i
may be dying of aids in 1989 is that not
political is the fact that i don't have
health insurance and i don't have access
to adequate health care is that not
political
and i you know i think that says it
clearly this is washington and helms was
on a rampage he'd already racked up
maple thorpe got in the corcoran to
cancel their show he'd already racked up
piss christ i mean this was the time
and they were looking for the trifecta
the third thing then david vonnerow
which was perfect for this this senator
is unwilling to spend one penny i'm
saddened to see that
congress might not feel that this show
should be
supported by the american taxpayer is
this about homophobia or what is it
about i i'm confused by it what are you
thinking about
i know i just said you know what
happened talking to this journalist from
the time you know he said that the nea
is claiming that what i said was
horrible monstrous you know inflammatory
this that the most terrible things that
they can't even repeat them and i said
look a study done on violence in america
found that there was increasing numbers
of homosexual teenagers that were
murdered or beaten up and that dynamite
tried to suppress that part of the study
because it contained the word homosexual
therefore william danimeyer condones the
murder and terrorizing of homosexual
teenagers and no gesture i can make it
even approximate the violence of what
these people have done i'm not gonna sit
still and be silent about it
how heroic
to the barricades
[Music]
[Music]
well what's happening now
the susan called up and it turns out
that uh the nea approached susan and now
they're doing a joint press conference
issuing statements and susan does this
paltry liberal stance of
here i think there are certain issues
that are not resolved here and i said
what the are you doing i said these
have themselves against the
wall over all these issues over
homophobia legislated silence of
homosexuals and lesbians in this country
what you're doing is you're avoiding the
whole thing for your funding and
i said you're a collaborator you and
your board and it's indicative of the
whole art world
david was
more skeptical and more negative about
the art world than he was about jesse
helms because he thought that curators
of the art world hid art with queer
ideas
and just anything that was out of the
white one tribe nation as he said was
being censored by the museums you didn't
need jesse helms and people like that
because the museums were already doing
the job for you
okay thanks
okay
okay
what happened
she's crying
she said she's gonna say in her
statement that
this is the failure of the government to
confront homophobia
in this society it's a legislation it's
a silence of homosexuals
and it's the failure to provide safe sex
information to people with aids
so they can make informed decisions
did she say that to the press
this is her statement she's and that
she's gonna
thank me uh from the bottom of her heart
for what she's learned
i feel you know i feel pretty emotional
about it
oh man
[Music]
this show does contain 10 years of work
starting with david's pearly street
stencil pieces to work that was just
made yesterday especially for this
gallery so without further ado i'd like
to introduce david monrovich
thanks a lot for coming tonight
i don't think anybody expected a crafter
it's kind of strange and emotional for
me to be standing in a room filled with
artifacts of my life
each painting photograph and sculpture
has built into it a particular frame of
mind that only i can know given that
i've always felt alien in this country
we call america
if i say i'm homosexual is that
something new to you does that make you
nervous
do you think it would be a crime if the
denial of information only killed people
that you didn't feel comfortable with do
you stop to get to know the person you
sit or walk next to in this school do
you make it comfortable for that person
to express ideas that might change your
ideas and i wake up every morning i wake
up every morning this killer machine
call america and i'm carrying this rage
like a blood-filled egg as each t-cell
disappears from my body it's replaced by
10 pounds of pressure 10 pounds of rage
and i focus my range into non-violent
resistance but the focus is starting to
slip and the egg is starting to crack
david became the local hero in a town
that needed a voice like this so badly
when i first went out there i knew that
it was like a fairly conservative town i
mean i had fantasies of people with
pitchforks storming the gallery
[Music]
in the days that followed people would
come running over to talk to me when
they spotted me
it was an extremely emotional positive
response
i should probably tell you how the
controversy happened
about a month into the show
there was one page in the book it was a
black and white homage to jean-janae who
was one of david's heroes
i didn't know it was in color
he just gave us the black and white and
we put it in the book
john janae has a plate over his head
that looks like a halo
there's angels and tommy guns and in the
right hand corner there's a picture of
jesus christ
with a hypodermic in his arm
[Music]
didn't make no never mind to me but
one of the people that got a hold of the
book was dana rohrbacher the right wing
politician from orange county california
[Music]
rohrabacher
put together a screed
with a xerox image of christ with the
injectable talking about
do you know what your nea money's going
for
fifteen thousand went to a show
that has anal and oral homosexual sex is
like a circus this exhibition tongues of
flame is an orgy of degenerate depravity
[Music]
then i started getting letters and
threats
from people to the university
saying we here you have this exhibition
that is morally unacceptable
people would come to the show
[Music]
and i'd end up having contests with them
about who could quote the bible better
me or them
try and explain to them that jesus was
the man of sorrows and he was here to
cleanses of our sins and if that meant
taking on the pain of a junkie then
that's what christ would have to do
[Music]
then all of a sudden i get a copy of a
two-page pamphlet that has excerpts of
david's greatest hit from donald wildman
and the american family association
donald wildman got pepsi to stop using
madonna as a spokesperson because of
cones that she was wearing and she was
being anti-religious
and evidently that had been sent to
thousands of churchgoers
and
any senator or congressman who hadn't
gotten it from rohrabacher
i sent that to david and i said
look at this
and that's when this has abandoned
[Music]
coming up
explains why he's suing a group that's
trying to cut off government funding of
the arts donald wildman went through a
catalog
went through it with a pair of scissors
he searched out what he perceived to be
tiny details of paintings or photographs
that involved the portrayal of sexual
activity
sometimes using less than two percent of
a single painting
he represented these mutilated fragments
as my work
this week voynirovich took wildman to
court for violating his copyright and
distorting his work by taking it out of
context
what i remember
was
the whole courtroom completely full of
artists and friends of david and
reverend wildman sitting there like he
was in a hell like in his mind in the
most awful place that the lord could
have possibly put him there was full of
sinners and sodomites and blasphemers
all around him and people dressed in
black and everyone's dressed in black
and he looked tortured
[Music]
this is something that i argued with
david about
numerous times and david was sick i said
to him
you don't have this time to waste
you're not going to change their minds
they don't have minds the so-called
ideas of these people like wildman
they're not ideas they're aspects of
bigotry
they're always people like this
sometimes they're more powerful than
others that was a moment of power for
those kind of churches and those kind of
people we're in one now again but in
between they lost power and in the end
they never have the power of an artist
david one of which is more valuable than
every one of these preachers that ever
lived as a person and as what he put
into the world
david was being cast as that angry young
man who was just screaming all the time
and people
had told him that he was not a good
painter
so he was challenging himself to make
beautiful paintings of flowers
but within that of course he put his
writing
and he did it in a way that melded with
the pictures
but as you read the works you realize he
was telling stories of death and
politics
i mean it's just really sad beautiful
show
i wonder what this little bug does in
the world what his job is
and
[Music]
if this little bug dies if the world
feels it
i mean does the earth feel it does the
world get a little lighter in the
rotation there's another one
[Music]
so you think they're married
or are they homosexuals on vacation
david was hiv positive in 88.
i went to new york a lot a lot of time
to work with him until 1991 i mean for
me he wasn't sick
you couldn't see
on his face on his body he was sick
until the last trip we did there's one
moment where i felt this virus
took his mind
may 1991 we did this trip in the
southwest
we were in death valley driving and i
said to david let's stop here i would
like to take photos
david said look i'm not really feeling
good i stay in the car go and i just
want to stay here
i don't know maybe i left a half hour
then i came back to the car and david
was laying down with the seat down
he was like
white completely white
i said david and he didn't answer to me
he wasn't sleeping his eyes were open
and then he looked at me
and he wasn't there
he was somewhere i don't know where
i started getting scared i touched his
face saying david david
david david and he came back slowly to
consciousness
and then he started laughing like
nothing happened like he was nowhere
that it has been here
that's the moment i felt that
something was shifting in his mind
[Music]
actually i
i
you know my memory
seems to come and go i forget so many
things these days where it just seems
huge blocks of time are suddenly gone
and then david they come back
the same trip david took his camera and
he said i would like you to take a photo
of me like if i was buried
so we silently start digging
and i cover him with sand and earth
took different photos i took photos from
behind
it was very strong
very strong
and that was the last trip we did
together
we never met again we spoke over the
phone but we never met again
[Music]
i guess it was about september of
91. he called me in the middle of the
night
probably around two in the morning
he said that he had a fever and he was
shaking and so i came over
i put him under a quilt and he was just
really shivering like he couldn't stop
and that was the beginning of it that
was the start of it
from then on things started to slowly
but surely go downhill
he was hospitalized for eight to ten
days
they did tests
with anyone home
and literally from then on he was never
really much out of bed
hi david penny arcade i have a friend
who's on the board of directors for the
museum of modern art he's interested in
getting peter into the museum call me so
i can talk to you okay
[Music]
[Music]
when you two did a concert out at the
meadowlands in new jersey they sent a
limousine for us and before the concert
we met with them bona wanted to know if
we wanted to pray with them we said no i
think we'll pass on that thank you you
know
but it was just so special i mean he was
thrilled he was really truly filled
hi david it's kiki
said that you went back in the hospital
so i hope you're okay
he was in and out of cabrini a number of
times and after one of them he said i'm
never going back again
home care was established in that loft
of the movie theater for him
that became a hospital room and most
patients didn't have that at that time
david was one of the first people to
have that level of home care and
probably that was the force of his
personality and tom's organization
skills
if not for tom that wouldn't have
happened
[Music]
david
dave
hello
spat
i just want to let you know i talked to
tom
and i told him when i'm coming in
i'm worried about you
i just hope that you have someone around
you and uh
well i'll talk to you tomorrow okay
big kiss bye-bye
his decline was speeding up dementia was
setting in
it was in and out it was getting more
and more difficult and he was more and
more tired
things were happening for david and you
could tell david mama had just bought
fire and he would just feel like that's
wonderful
and you could tell him five minutes
later and he would not remember it was a
groundhog day you could just absolutely
tell them the same thing over and he had
absolute happiness
it was a very beautiful wide-eyed david
it wasn't like it wasn't him but he was
joyous
[Music]
dr bob said real person comes out when
they get into dementia if they're nasty
at core they'll be nasty but david was
as sweet as he could be
it was heartbreaking for me
he didn't think anybody would stick
around if he got sick or he was dying he
was very much afraid of that and i think
as a result of how badly he was treated
as a kid you know there was a tremendous
sadness and fear for me worrying about
him and knowing he was just getting
worse and worse
but at the same time i felt grateful
that i could be there for him
looking out the windows i can place
myself somewhere out in that sky
lie down in that texture and dream of
years and years of sleep
and i
and i talk
and i talk inside my head of change no
peace for this body beside me
smell the flowers while you can't yeah
july 22nd
he died at the apartment and there were
like
12 of us there all of his friends his
sister
the nurse said to tom i think he's gone
and um
that was it
it's no one thing mr david's life it was
the burden of carrying all those
illnesses and that one body that was
just too much for one body to bear
there were a lot of tears during that
time there were a lot of tears then but
i've gained a great deal of distance now
of course and you know in some ways it's
even hard to remember him which i don't
like
it's what time does to you
but he's always here you know he's
always here no matter what i know he's
here
[Music]
so
[Music]
[Music]
so
[Music]
oh my god here we are
i said i wasn't going to cry and i'm
already tearing up
it's been so long coming
here it is
it's a little overwhelming isn't it wow
[Music]
look at all of this
all the peter hujar dreaming
peter was quite an extraordinary
character and they were so connected
yeah
anita there's your monkey there's your
monkey yes it is
david painted it for peter and it was
over his bed while he was sick yes and
when he died they he gave it to anita
kept it for 20 years yeah and i'm so
sorry i needed to sell it
if i could buy it back from that woman i
would
peter would always say that the monkey
was carrying the weight of the world on
his shoulders the way david did it
this has always been a favorite when i
first saw it it really kind of moved me
a lot
at that point david was not feeling very
well and i just kept thinking of
extinction in boinerobich he's so clever
he really was he had such a great
childish imagination
the imagination
the is of countries we can break through
existing structures of government
the work
that anybody does as an artist if it
doesn't reflect resistance
[Music]
so today in studio we have chris mckim
the director
of boynirovich you
thanks for uh making the trek to
brooklyn chris thank you thanks so much
for having me what was the inspiration
behind this film it all started july
2017 and at that point we were like six
months into trump's administration and i
was losing my mind as everyone else was
and i was trying to figure out what my
next project was and i was sort of
trying to find sort of archival
type projects the aids sort of crisis
was was also sort of one of the the
areas that i was sort of researching and
trying to find somebody that might lend
itself something that might lend itself
to a documentary and that's when i
stumbled across david now i was aware of
david i knew some of his work but i
didn't know a lot about him i very
quickly went down this wormhole one you
know friday afternoon and i realized
that there was all this story behind him
and all this amazing work and all this
writing um and also there it was about a
year before the whitney retrospective so
i also saw that was coming up and there
had never been a documentary about him
at that point uh so i reached out to his
estate through pbow the gallery that uh
managed him when he was still alive
um and things just rolled from there
it's just daunting to me the idea of
making a film based on like like this
you know we we make documentary films
here but not based on this like troll
barca you make it look effortless in a
way when it's done
but it had to have been a very
challenging process i imagine yes did
you ever get lost in the the weeds like
what am i
what story am i telling you no uh not
not
the story part was was not
um was not the difficult part i mean you
know no more difficult than it always is
but we really starting with the audio it
i i would cut little pods um and you can
kind of feel it in the film it is that
kind of rollercoaster of sections
throwing on some images just ideas of
stuff and there's almost no sync video
in the film you know there there's the
scene in david's apartment at the
beginning and end
and then some of his band footage but
otherwise it was just all piece mode and
the really the difficult part handing
over these chunks and sort of reviewing
stuff with dave the editor you know
there's it's one thing to show somebody
a string out of material with talking
head interviews and some other footage
because you can you can you're watching
the same reactions you're seeing
the the in addition to hearing
personalities come out through the
interviews really seeing it so you don't
really think about how much you're
taking from the audio but when you're
watching something that might not even
have any images on it yet i really you
know you kind of realize that you're not
necessarily seeing the same things
because it's all it you know up to the
mind's eye
um and so that became a very the first
few weeks were really hairy for me
because i knew what i wanted the film to
be but i didn't know i didn't didn't no
you know i think what we ended up doing
was a great representation of what i was
hoping for but that would be hard to
describe or know that that we could
actually do it um and in the first few
weeks i just i i didn't know if it was
going to happen as we were started
editing and i really panicked i would
imagine that you needed a real partner
in making this film and you're in so far
as you're extremely talented editor yes
yes understood the vision and how to do
it yeah and and you know post has always
been the biggest part of it for me even
on those the other projects which rely
so much on production production to me
was always about like getting things to
bring back to what i call like the
sandbox of the editing bay um to play
with and you know
there's all sorts of responsibilities
and being true to the subjects and you
know not doing no harm and all that
stuff but it in telling a story that
people relate to but at the end of the
day it's always to me about like finding
things that that speak you know speak to
me or speak to us and that's kind of how
it all
you know i wake up every morning this
killer machine call america and i'm
carrying this rage like a blood-filled
egg as each t-cell disappears from my
body it's replaced by 10 pounds of
pressure 10 pounds of rage and i focus i
range into non-violent resistance but
the focus is starting to slip and the
egg is starting to crack
thank you you approached this with
an approach and purpose
and experience in making films like this
on some level with the rock film and
then
also a strategy
and you were able to make this film in a
pretty efficient way it feels like
otherwise you watch the film you're like
well if you had said so 12 years ago i
started working on this film it wouldn't
have surprised me you know well you know
i think that's
that's the benefit of the tv experience
you know like it was the show running
around the first four seasons of drag
race so you know when when you're
starting a show and then
over the course of say one year you you
know you might go from nothing to to
shooting and editing and getting on the
air 14 episodes like that's a very tight
confined
schedule and and i will say that like
the idea of
entertaining ourselves in the edit bay
and when i say that it's it's it's
putting things together in a way that
that means something to us and you know
entertaining can be devastating you know
it doesn't have to be cheerful but it's
just whatever moves us and i use
entertaining as sort of a catch-all but
i think if things pop
to you know pop to me or like you know i
kind of trust that and having a scene or
a moment and being able to cram in
all the emotion you know it might be
both sad and funny and heartfelt or
whatever and
i think all of that previous experience
is very helpful a man whose principles
have been familiar to americans for 30
years a man whose accomplishments make
him the natural choice for president of
the united states we will
make america great again
thank you very much
reagan is the president of this country
now going through a time in my life that
seems desperate surreal awful and
slightly wondrous all simultaneously and
so the
original
kind of impetus
or energy that kind of got you going
this direction was a new administration
the trump administration being in and
you being
feeling how exactly well just helpless
and angry you know and i just helpless
and angry helpless and angry and i also
you know these projects take so much out
of you and you know you invest so much
of my time and you know our time in them
um and you want them to mean something
and
you know david
you know not to the degree that i came
to realize but david just very quickly
seemed like there would be things that
spoke to the you know what was going on
and make me feel like i was actually
doing something proactive even if it
wasn't quite so in the moment
um my hope was that it would be
meaningful in some way and and the
deeper i got into you know
his journals and the audio that he left
behind it just you know he turned out to
be sort of like a perfect foil because
so much of what he
addressed and talked about in the 80s
you know of course is still a problem
the government has a day-to-day job
maintaining an illusion of a one tribe
nation and inside of that one tribe
nation there's actually
millions of tribes historically
minorities have always been expendable
in this country
what is the parallel that you see from
the aids epidemic in the 80s to the
kind of
you know
political climate and pandemic that
we've lived through over the last 18
months well you know david was political
throughout his life even like before the
aids crisis and as he was coming into
his own as an artist
um there were a lot of social issues
that um
brought drew his attention and a lot of
his work is based on this idea that you
know what he called america's one tried
nation mentality in our pre-invented
existence
trump was not the only indication i mean
it had never gone away these issues and
the power struggle and the way
uh you know politicians and anyone in
power sort of manipulate the masses to
to try to stay in power and
um of course we know it's you know and
as david says in the film you know
minorities in this country are just
disposable
whether they're black or brown or gay or
you know as david says junkies you know
whatever it might be and you know that
that so much of that seemed to really
speak to what was going on and as i was
listening to david's tapes and and going
through the material i was always kind
of trying to listen for things that felt
like they could have been from today is
the fact that i may be dying of aids in
1989 is that not political is the fact
that i don't have health insurance and i
don't have access to adequate health
care is that not political there's so
many little parallels like that he talks
about drug testing um the age drug
testing before there were any cocktails
or anything and how you know they were
testing on minority children and the way
they were sort of conning parents into
doing this and giving children placebos
the way he describes in the film is like
they were taking these kids from
their parents which at the time we were
doing that was in the middle of you know
all of that stuff going on with at the
border and families being separated
um so it just felt you know really
ripped from the headlines of the moment
they were strapping minority babies to
beds and giving
half of them placebos
basically they're stealing these babies
from their parents
saying this is the only way your baby
can get treatment
sawing this form
killing half of them purposefully with
placebos
the amount of
archival
that you had to go through explain the
process you know you you
got in touch with the
the the kind of agents that represented
his estate said you wanted to make a
film
and then did they just give you this
like well here's a treasure trove of
everything he recorded everything did
you know going into it i had some idea
that there was stuff i didn't know that
it was going to be as amazing as it was
all of david's archive was being kept at
fails library at nyu they have sort of a
downtown collection of
various archives but they've really made
david's um
kind of a centerpiece
in terms of how they've cataloged it and
made elements public with the estate on
board we had access to everything um and
so i went to nyu probably over those
couple years i spent maybe four or five
weeks total um
going through pages and pages and just
photographing things on my phone
there were probably about 200 audio
cassettes and so they sent me
everything that had already been
digitized and each audio file
represented like one half of an audio
tape so it was like 30 to 45 minutes and
those were his tape journals and and the
answering machine tapes conversations he
had with friends that just street sounds
he recorded walking around times square
a mixtape he made in paris which ended
up
being used for three teen skill 4 music
all sorts of things and you know once
once i got that stuff i just sort of as
that was coming and i loaded the audio
files onto my iphone and just walked
around and listened to his tapes and
sort of you know became acquainted with
david sort of started my relationship
with david because it became very
personal i remember one of the most
emotional experiences was one day being
picked up by this guy who was very
creepy
and i remember blind on this dirty bed
that was one of these cheap hotels and
this guy sucking my dick his mouth was
sticky and that he would kiss my leg and
there would be like this gummy
kind of stuff on my leg and it was all
the stuff that i was really repulsed by
and not enough to not have a heart on i
remember feeling all this incredible
emotion for this guy i just felt so sad
for him at some point like reached under
his arms and pulled them up to me and
kissed him on the mouth which is the
thing that i least wanted to do
he started weeping and just said
nobody's ever done that and ended up
giving me extra money and whatever which
i was quite happy with what was it like
going through
this deeply
personal archive it's almost like having
you know someone's cell phone password
and you can access their most personal
thoughts and feelings i mean it was it
was amazing and you know the earliest
tape is is from when he was 21 and he
was going cross-country with a friend
and there was a sort of a substantial
chunk because he would record them off
and on over the years and the busier he
got with his art the less he did the
tape journals but there was sort of a
big chunk from 1981 which
i think actually represents probably a
healthy amount of what we ended up using
in the film and so much of what was on
those tapes sounded really relatable i
think to anyone who is trying to find
their way in the world whether they're
an artist or not he was like 26 at the
time um but also as an artist wondering
if what he was doing you know had any
value if he was any good if it mattered
in the world and so much of the things
he was discussing
you know spoke to why i wanted to do you
know why what i was looking for when i
found sort of this as a documentary
topic i've been filled with this sense
of
of
anxiousness and the fact that i'm 26 and
thinking about myself and my values my
actions and thinking about the effect of
people on people wondering if any of
it's
meaningful if it's futile
trying to figure out what it is that my
life is and where i've been going little
gems like that i think it's it's what
people really ended up relating to in
the film because
you know david was a scary person and
even if people weren't aware of him and
what little they have heard about him
over the years whatever rage he carried
has become sort of the brand which was a
big part of it but he was also you know
sort of an intimate sincere and funny
person and all these things
and so much of that came out through the
tapes and i'm wandering around tell me
more about the tapes specifically the
answering machine tapes um well the you
know the answering machine tapes were
another
surprise find hours and hours and hours
of these answering machine tapes you
know peter hujar who is so important in
david's life and such a big part of the
story
is only in the film through those
answering machine tapes and so much of
their relationship and the that their
interaction comes just from the
giddiness and the goofiness that um
you know peter puts in there and and to
be able to kind of bring him to life
through those words really unexpected
and
a blessing
this is huge arena again
i was wondering if david's steam
vegetable was there
this is peter
fast juice
and the same with uh
david's sister pat who passed away
a few years ago um and i i did not get
to interview
and she's on the answering machine tapes
and again like just these little
snippets i think you can you can hear
their relationship it's very personal
it's almost in some ways more almost
more personal than what's not i mean
david puts a lot out there in the those
tape journals but some of it is as
personal because again
sometimes it's just the tone of their
voice in the end when she calls
and it's near the end of his life and
and
she's saying that you know he she's
coming to town but you know she hopes he
has you know someone around him and you
can hear that it you know she that she's
getting emotional on the other end and
it's a subtle thing but it's there
i just want to let you know i talked to
tom
and i told him when i'm coming in
i'm worried about you
i just hope that you have someone around
you and uh
well i'll talk to you tomorrow okay
big kiss bye-bye
i will say that one of the things i love
you know david is such a very disruptive
um
you know a lot of the work is very
aggressive in in various ways and you
know there's that moment in the film
where david's reading the text on the
painting that features his photographs
of peter hujar after he'd passed away
and david's reading this text and
shouting it and as that's going on you
know we have this little low beep and
you hear this like david
david
and you know and then this like david at
the moment i'm a 37 foot tall 1
172 pound man inside this six foot body
and all i can feel is the pressure all i
can feel is the pressure and the knee
for relief
and it's she's trying to see if he's
going to answer the phone but it's like
this loud moment and this soft little
voice is suddenly disrupting in the film
the answering machine tapes were great
transitions because we realized that
anytime we kind of
wanted to move on to the next thing but
didn't really have a way in we could
just throw in a phone call and it's like
a natural break that people understand
you know they're they're used to their
lives
sort of being interrupted by a cop that
also provides more context and
layers to the story as well yeah yeah i
hate to put a label on him but he's just
he's so punk
buenorovich you know it's just like the
political nature of his work the
but he didn't
when the art world started embracing him
his reaction to that was not like okay
now this is my opportunity to
to cash in and sell out
he seemed very very authentic and
consistent in his ideals and beliefs and
his conviction of them yeah you know he
certainly at you know 85 became this
really big year he was in the whitney
biennial and he got this
huge sort of
commission to do this minutian
installation
david didn't really like rich people
so he took all this garbage off of the
street and put it into the installation
right he had had a really hard life up
to that point
always broke
um not the healthiest from from sort of
that like malnourished and struggling on
the street childhood and and things like
that and so suddenly when he had money
to
not have it quite so rough
it it gave him an opportunity to to
consider these things and wonder about
these who were paying for it
you know and that really pissed him off
of course he wanted his work out there
and the whitney biennial
it's a huge showcase for an artist who's
only been painting for two years um but
you know he also didn't like the the
people that it attracted and you know as
he says you know art like history is
made for certain people you know it's
kept for certain people and and what he
did in his work was try to speak to his
own history um and present a different
kind of history you know the stories
less told speak to
how you know we bring down the system by
putting ourselves into our work it does
confront this this idea of a one tribe
nation and it robs
the the people who control the media and
control history in the books
of
being able to say this is the only thing
so towards the end of the film
you have the scene of his funeral
in 1992 and it says his funeral was was
the first political funeral of the aids
era
what does that actually mean
that was something that was brought up
in his biography did cynthia carr who um
had been there at the time that's where
i think the idea came from for me
and certainly i think at that was i
think the first time that people took to
the streets for a particular person who
had passed away from aids and the
protest was really tied to this specific
loss
after that it cert the idea certainly
expanded there were there there were
you know there were corpse you know
there were
dead people in coffins who were paraded
you know in washington and and
i think new york at the time and and
certainly
the idea of a political funeral expanded
and uh became i think a much
sharper weapon i don't need this from
you i don't need this kind of insult i
have faces every day and i don't
need it from quote-unquote family do you
understand well this is a conversation
and steve we never see each other again
goodbye
why do you think he was recording
everything do you think he had an
inkling that one day these tapes would
be heard or was it a form of paranoia or
ego or narcissism you know i think david
did consider that
these audio tapes and journals may be
used at some point and based on on
things he said on the tapes and and his
sort of general attitude about things
along the way i think he was probably
conflicted about that
but he
was also i think very aware you know he
had the model of peter hujar in his life
and his mentorship through all things
and when peter died as fran says in the
film you know there were seven people
that probably could tell you who peter
hujar was and um and the head of his um
state now says you know he was a saint
on avenue a but nobody knew who he was
david
like all of us you know it's like this
conflict of like you you want your work
to be known you want to be attached to
it
there's
a problem with that when it does happen
and it freaks you out or you know even
when when he gained fame
sort of in the mid 80s and and suddenly
as as he was getting attention
it became this new struggle for him and
you know there were things he destroyed
sort of
in in the months and in
um
leading up to his death in few years
pieces and things that he didn't want
out there but he didn't get rid of this
stuff and so i think
he he was aware of i think how how it
might
be you know might be useful for his
legacy um
in what way probably didn't know
um did he feel great about that was he
convinced that was a good thing
i bet not um
but enough to keep it around and to to
to let it exist it seems that the art
world at a certain point embraces david
but did he also make the art world
nervous or scare the art world a little
bit and then he has this controversy
with the nea yeah i mean i think david
did
uh scare the art world for sure um
both in
you know what his art covered but also i
think dealing with him personally so
that that certainly contributed to to to
to you know their feelings about him and
you know with the nea
at the time they had been they had gone
after maple thorpe they had gotten his
show cancelled at the corcoran in
washington
there was the controversy with andre
sereno's piss christ and so when
the witnesses against our vanishing
which was the beginning of his his
troubles with the nea in in sort of
censorship it's interesting that
for this visual artist the issue he was
also a writer and the issue
came from the essay that he had uh in
the book in the in the program for for
the show the catalog and it was his
words and thoughts you know pure on the
page that really caused the issue and
you know initially
caused the nea to pull the grant from
which was only you know fifteen thousand
dollars pulled the grant from from the
the gallery in the show
and then that january was the
retrospective that they had in normal
illinois around his life and and then
that everything kind of snowballed from
there because
it the show drew more attention that
catalog now for the for the actual
visual art
um became sort of the focus of
controversy and in the focus of attacks
on his work there were questions about
why the money was going to this all the
way up to the white house where george
bush had sent this note to the head of
the nea
um asking about this image of jesus
shooting up heroin
and and that it's interesting that whole
controversy from that point on and the
thing with the american family
association and
um donald wildman
it was never about the entirety of any
piece of art and you know most of the
work were collages so they would take
some little portion of it and it you
know it might be five percent of the
overall piece but it was this focus
um that would draw the attention and
there were several pieces that they had
just kind of clipped
little it was like like a ransom note
cut and pasted sections out and and made
this flyer um and sent it to like every
member of congress and to to you know
various christian factions as barry
blinderman who was the curator of the
retrospective and coincidentally the
owner of you the
painting um
you know says in the film that the image
of you know jesus shooting himself up
was representative of you know jesus
taking on the pain and suffering of
humans and like that's what that meant
and it's like well if jesus were walking
around today in lower manhattan you know
he would be with the junkies and the
people who needed him most and you know
in some ways that's
what that represented i'd end up having
contests with them about who could quote
the bible better me or them
trying to explain to them that jesus was
the man of sorrows and he was here to
cleanses of our sins and if that meant
taking on the pain of a junkie then
that's what christ would have to do
what was the kind of message that you
were trying to get across in this film
in the end
it it was
about how you know the importance of art
and putting ourselves in our work and
and you know at the end of the film
david says
if the work we make as artists doesn't
contribute to the resistance we're
helping a system of control become more
perfect the message of the film in the
closing the film is is about
sort of inspiring
david putting himself in his work and
using that as a means to sort of you
know bring down the system and and you
know as he says in the film when we put
ourselves in our work we apply a tiny
amount of pressure um on a system of
control that would will willingly jump
into fascism if we didn't if there
wasn't enough pressure on its throat i
never would have voiced it that way but
that's certainly like
you know what i kind of hoped um in a
very eloquent way um
and i i think that does come across in
the film and i think that
we don't try to white wash or um
you know soften
his opinions of things and and and try
to even calling the film you know
you was i think the thing
that's most true to david and putting it
out there and
and
um in the way that you know he sort of
reclaimed it from this little
piece of graffiti um to make this
beautiful piece of art
um it seemed like a perfect way to label
the film that for people who might not
know who david is
probably can't say his name when they
see the title
but you know in the places that are
using the tagline they see you
and you know they they
know they're in for something raw and
and
possibly violent the film was supposed
to premiere at tribeca um
in 2020 and and after it was accepted we
had to kind of give them the full title
and we always knew we were going to have
some kind of
tagline subtitle but we didn't know what
it was i sort of threw it out in a
meeting and if randy and well actually
fenton instantly was like yes that's it
and randy was like i don't know and then
by the next day he was like yes um you
know so they world of wonder they were
always on board because that's also very
much in their spirit of like you know uh
a lack of creative self-censorship and
you know pushing the boundaries um but
you know from that point forward you
know it was picked up by keno lorber and
as they're marketing the film i think
i'm sure very rightly were concerned all
along the way that that that title would
be problematic and
sort of not
allowed to get the exposure that one
would hope
um and then you know a few months ago at
the met gala dan levy
wore he had the
two boys kissing and all this stuff and
suddenly everyone didn't use it but
suddenly without asterix that was
popping up in you know very respectable
and in
unexpected places
you know people are very protective of
of david's legacy not just the estate
but of course the estate who had to
approve that but i think people
who knew david and also you know
generations of
not just queer but
specifically queer people who you know
idolize david in the work that he did
that feel very protective and you know
some people weren't so keen on his work
being sort of boiled down into this this
fat piece of fashion um and put on a
runway by you know sort of a big
star but at the same time you know that
was the day before david's birthday and
on david's birthday more people across
the country were saying david's name
then would have been otherwise and
would he have approved
maybe not but if he were still alive
there would be
40 years of 30 years of david putting
his name out there and creating new work
and it would have been a non-issue but
you know i think it's it's been hard
it's like 30 years after his death
still not the most known artist for for
a variety of reasons um
his name
the work not just because it's
challenging but it's
not easily identifiable you know it's
not
a keith herring which you see keith
herring and you know it's a keith
herring it's not you know
somebody getting fist it's not a
maplefork piece and and so it's not
very little of it feels that iconic and
and i think for that reason it it's you
know
made his legacy harder to to perpetuate
um so to me
something like that i think is is
beneficial even if it you know
isn't
the ideal and and certainly i mean i
can't say that i was unhappy that
suddenly people were saying you
know the title of the film eight months
after it came out weinerovich
is you know an artist who expressed
himself through many different mediums
writing photography painting music which
speaks to you the most i
i you know i think it's the entirety of
his
life and it's all of these pieces of
work
and in the way that making the film felt
collaborative because of the way david
would reuse things in his work i think
it's hard to separate what was the most
successful because certain things were
reused and used in different ways and it
was it was almost like an you know all
hands on deck onslaught of all of his
ideas and all of his work and him trying
to figure out
reworking ideas and trying to you know
find new ways to to make it successful
even the idea of the sewn mouth is
something that
came up through david's work much
earlier in the paintings and and some of
the you know he did these sculptural
heads and so i i you know i think it's
kind of hard to to separate and say any
one thing is is the most successful i
love the idea that you felt like you
were actually
collaborating with wenderovich on this
film yeah and i was i mean throughout it
it was one of the big inspirations was
trying to get david not to like haunt me
or come back and get me you know
fortunately that hasn't happened
um but i definitely it definitely felt
like he was with us because as i said
there were problems that we would
encounter and the solution always came
from david you know
um from the from the tape journals in
interesting ways do you feel like he
would have been happy with the film um
i like to think so um i
it's hard for me to i like i i could
never go around and say well david would
love this film people that know him i've
been told by by people that knew him
that you know they think he would
approve and that means a lot to me it's
so aggressive that you know it's got
you in the title i don't
know how many documentaries have a rim
job in it but like all the reasons in
the world that it would not be well
received by the new york times or new
yorker these like establishment things
that you know that the places that uh
you know david would instantly see the
value in and
instantly be pissed about which is great
[Music]
i was just words of pictures
[Music]
[Music]
who will lie the
[Music]
an american how about that anyway
goodbye
uh
[Music]
[Applause]
[Music]
yes
[Music]
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